Speaker 0 00:00:01 Welcome to this Centrum podcast. For more podcasts or to join Centrum programs Building Creativity in Community, visit
[email protected].
Speaker 2 00:00:25 I'm Michelle Haywood, and this is On Air, a podcast focusing on conversations with artists and creatives. From Centrums residency community. I am broadcasting to you from the lands and waters of the coast, Salish people in a place known as Katai to the Squa Qualin people, and today known as Port Towns in Washington. This podcast is focused on bringing artists together in community to explore the ways that place, process, and the personal intersect. We dive into the many ways that artists are responding to the current times affecting change and finding sustenance during health, climate, and social crisis. Join us and take an hour to be in residence and unpack your own relationships to creativity, time and place. Thank you for being here and enjoy this episode.
Speaker 2 00:01:22 Hi, and welcome back to our annual residency podcast program. We began this podcast series in 2020 as a pandemic podcast, and it's been a special program to continue into now our third year of living with the coronavirus, and its many implications. This year we limited the series to our emerging artist program, which in 2022 also included a special cohort of emerging writers coordinated by our program manager for writers, George Marie. As a result, we have five conversations that highlight the thoughts and stories of 10 individuals who joined us for the month of October. This group of residents received stipends, housing and studio spaces, but most importantly, they were encouraged to take this time to rest, recover, and tend to all the things that are necessary for creative processes to take place. For this series, we asked the residents to pair up among themselves and interview each other.
Speaker 2 00:02:24 This format seeks to capture the essence of what happens during a residency where an individuals have lots of solo time, but also chances to connect with each other and share surprising details about their lives and pursuits unfettered by a formal interviewer or agenda. In this episode, we meet Allie Hankins and Hexe Fey who come together to compare notes on how they manage expectations for their work following curiosities and conquering insecurities within their processes. I think you'll find this conversation incredibly nourishing and like sitting down with your best friend to have all your ideas and realities validated. Enjoy.
Speaker 4 00:03:12 All right.
Speaker 5 00:03:13 Party,
Speaker 4 00:03:14 Party time, <laugh>. Let's get wild. Um, start with some introductions. Yeah. Okay. Um, my name is Allie Hankins and I'm here mostly as a dancer, choreographer, performer, working on some material for a show that has a time sometime in the future that I'm not entirely sure about. And I, uh, generally live, generally live in Portland, Oregon.
Speaker 5 00:03:55 Cool. Um, I'm hexa. I make things sometimes. Um, I'm very, very bad at introductions and talking to myself, um, talking about myself. Uh, yeah, I guess what's relevant is that I'm, um, uh, interactive fiction writer and video game designer and, uh, sometimes a dancer. And my focus is on, uh, uh, as a, uh, an indigenous person, as an Lakota, um, person is on indigenous, um, video games and digital art and, uh, technology ethics is like my jam. It's my nerd stuff. Yeah.
Speaker 4 00:04:53 Cool. I don't know the term technology ethics. Can you say a little more about that?
Speaker 5 00:04:59 Um, yeah, it's just like, what frameworks do we use when we're like creating technology and applying technology and how does it fit into our culture? And like, mainstream technology ethics are really bad, like with a lot of it, it's basically all either profit or war driven. Um, and, uh, I mean, I'm sure they don't think that those goals are bad. They're, um, but like from my perspective, they're not helpful to the goal of like continuing to live on a planet mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, yeah.
Speaker 4 00:05:39 Right. Um, I was, I, I've been wanting to ask you some questions around your relationships to games and like game construction and just sort of the possibility within games and like this idea of like rules, which I typically have like a, a more negative relationship to that word, but in the context of games, I feel like they're, this means to a different kind of end. I was recently in a piece called Grammar of the Imagination with a choreographer named Claire Burrera, and it was all about, um, like childhood games that kids play on the playground and things like this. And kind of putting it in a performative context as a way of looking at the possibility of that tension that can arise in games cuz it's not all fun. Like sometimes really hard feelings come up in those games. Totally. And where, where to where can that like, direct us, um, as individuals, but she was also curious about like, as a society at large or just as a community at large. Um, so when I'm thinking about games recently, I've been thinking more along those lines of like, the possibility of rules, the possibility of play, the possibility of these kinds of interactions. And so I was curious how any of those things come up for you when you're designing games or thinking about games?
Speaker 5 00:07:08 Oh gosh. There's a lot. Yeah. A lot there. Um, as far as like the, oh gosh, possibility of play and stuff, um, that's always part of what I'm designing for. Like, I want people to engage in a more, like, in a playful manner with most of the things that I make. Or at least like in a, there are occasions when they're, um, serious, like oriented, but like, um, putting things in the realm of games and fiction, um, often takes it out of a context where people are reacting, um, like with a lot of bias because they, um, they don't, it, it takes you to like a slightly different like part of your brain, I believe. Right? Like when you're like interacting in like games. Um, even when there is in, within like rule sets and also like in fantasy worlds, like you're still bringing like all of your like personal like history and traumas and prejudices with you mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but like, um, it's often like out of like your personal context. Right. Um, yeah. So then you can often like examine different parts of like yourself or not if you choose not to through like games and, and play and that sort of thing. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 4 00:08:45 <affirmative>. Yeah. Yeah. I'm thinking also about it. It's mentioned in your bio, so I know about it. Um, the game you made about writing an artist bio, which I was so delighted by because we all <laugh> Sure. Have like a pretty complicated relationship to the artist bio. And I really love that you kind of took that and were like, or I don't know, my perception is like, you took that and kind of ran with it in this way. That's like, yeah. It's fucking complicated. So like it is Yeah.
Speaker 5 00:09:19 Yeah. No, that, that game, which is, um, titled Cursed Task. Yes.
Speaker 4 00:09:24 <laugh> So funny <laugh>
Speaker 5 00:09:26 About trying to write an artist bio or like a, a like a bio in general, trying to promote yourself. Like I, that was really next level, uh, procrastination because I was supposed to be writing a bio Yes. <laugh> and I did not want to at all, so I made a game instead. <laugh>.
Speaker 4 00:09:51 That's so perfect. I love that. Yeah. Um, how has, I don't know, I guess, what have you been working on out here?
Speaker 5 00:10:05 Oh gosh. Um, I've been, I trying to make like a physical, like hand printed book or like zine type thing that's, uh, interactive fiction, which is like a lot of skills that I am, don't necessarily have that I've been, uh, experimenting with and succeeding and failing in various measures. <laugh>, <laugh>. Um, and uh, um, I also tried an experiment in, um, doing image transfers of my, um, glitch photography, which is actually turning out better than I expected, so, oh, I might have some cute little like, physical visual art things when I'm done. We'll see how that
Speaker 4 00:10:53 Goes. Nice.
Speaker 5 00:10:54 But yeah.
Speaker 4 00:10:55 Amazing.
Speaker 5 00:10:56 Anyway, we've been talking about me a lot. What about you? What are you working on? Tell me
Speaker 4 00:11:00 Things. Um, I'll tell you things. Um, I, I've been working on a, uh, well, hmm, I just finished a project in August and that performance was part one of a five part series. And so I'm working on another part. I, this part I guess I've been thinking a lot about, I use the word melody, but really it's not just about melody, it's about vocalization and embodiment of voice, which are things that I've thought about in my past for sure. But I'm trying to just like, be really, really playful with it and really experimental with it, um, knowing that none of this has to be seen by anyone or heard by anyone. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I mean, that's kind of the gift of a residency context sometimes is just a lot of time and space to try the things that maybe you wouldn't prioritize if you had rented the studio for two hours back home or whatever.
Speaker 4 00:12:06 Um, so I've been doing a lot of singing <laugh> and a lot of vocalizing and a lot of recording of those things. And then kind of creating this chorus of my own voices, my own voice multiplied, um, with these five tape players and kind of singing with them and creating images around the way the voices overlap. Um, and finding a lot of pleasure and like dissonance and, but some surprising really kind of, um, achy moments in the body where like the sounds resonate together in such a way that like, is just so pleasurable that it's simultaneously like, kind of brings me this euphoric feeling, but also makes me kind of wanna jump outta my body cuz like, the vibration <laugh> feels so good. Um, so yeah, there's been a lot of just like pleasure and play in what I've been up to in the studio without any specific goal in mind. Yeah.
Speaker 5 00:13:08 Cool. That's exciting. It's
Speaker 4 00:13:10 Been fun, <laugh>.
Speaker 5 00:13:11 Yeah. Just like having that space to be able to like, play with things without, like, trying to produce within specific limits you can do, like Yeah. It's really fun.
Speaker 4 00:13:24 Yeah, it's really fun. And I don't know if you ever experienced, I mean, you've said a little bit that, um, like some things have turned out really well, some things haven't gone the way you thought, and sometimes that's so nice and like interesting to engage with, but I did find just a couple of days ago that feeling of like imposter syndrome or like, ugh, I don't know what I'm doing and that means I'm bad at this. Like, those feelings were starting to creep in a little bit and I feel like it's this kind of constant, uh, reminding myself like, it's okay that it doesn't work mm-hmm. <affirmative> or it's okay that that wasn't what you thought it was. And I don't know, it's really hard to escape the confines of like, I must produce something quote unquote good and quote unquote interesting and mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah.
Speaker 5 00:14:16 Yeah. Yeah. I get caught up in that a lot as well. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> trying to, like, my idea of what I need to create is often much more, uh, unattainable than what I can actually <laugh>. Yeah. <laugh>.
Speaker 4 00:14:31 Yeah. Yeah. Ambitions. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I think we had kind of talked about this a little bit before, but just on that note of like how the residency context informs the work, um, have you noticed anything that's come into your process that you didn't expect or that you just really didn't see happening that kind of showed up unexpectedly?
Speaker 5 00:15:08 Um, yeah. The, the image transfer process, which was something that I had just chanced upon when I was looking for a, like a specific like technique for like book binding or something, and it like popped up in like, in like Google search or something nice. And I was like, maybe I'll just try that. And it's turned out way cooler than I thought it would <laugh>. So That's really neat.
Speaker 4 00:15:33 Yeah.
Speaker 5 00:15:33 Yeah. How about you? Huh?
Speaker 4 00:15:35 Yeah, I mean, I think, yeah, a lot of things. I think just exactly what you're speaking to. Like I'm following one idea and then yeah, through Google search or through like a distraction out the window or whatever, <laugh> like, I'm like, oh wait, maybe I should try this thing. And just that kind of following curiosity without any like rigorous adherence to some pre-planned idea has made all sorts of surprising things come up. Um, I brought all of my props from the la like from the show in August, like this part one of this series. And I've been really surprised <laugh> because I'd been, because of the pandemic, I'd been working on that piece for like five years. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> maybe longer <laugh>. And so I thought I'd done everything I could possibly do with all of those props, you know, I was like, I've investigated the shit out of this, like, there's nothing new I can discover here. And then I came here and I'm like, oh, that was really ridiculous of me to assume <laugh> because look at all these new things. <laugh>, I had no idea I could do this with the tape recorders or I could put things in this way that like kind of reveals this other texture. You know, like just all sorts of surprising wonderful things have come up and who knows how much of it will stay, but it's just been nice to find those.
Speaker 5 00:17:00 Heck yeah.
Speaker 4 00:17:01 Yeah.
Speaker 5 00:17:02 Yeah. Yeah. I feel like, um, taking yourself out of your normal environment, whether that be like a specific studio or your, like a workspace in your house or whatnot, often like activates different parts of your brain. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 4 00:17:19 Yeah. Totally. Um, I just wanna circle back really quick because of the image making you were talking about, um, the Glitch art mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I know a little bit about what that means, but not a lot. And I was wondering if you could say a little more about that too.
Speaker 5 00:17:38 Yeah. Um, well, I mean, basically Glitch Art came about because when you're using computers to either like capture or edit, um, like photographs or like images, um, sometimes they just fuck up. Yeah. And then sometimes those fuck ups look really cool though. And people started trying to figure out ways to mess with images within those parameters. Like, like intentionally fucking it up so it looked cool. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and so there was like a whole community of people doing that and creating different tools to do it with. Right. Um, and uh, I have to admit I'm a little bit more of a, like a more of a hobbyist I guess, because I am not a programmer, so I don't program most of the tools that I use. Mm-hmm. Um, which used to give me a lot of, uh, imposter syndrome because there's so much, um, emphasis in like tech circles on like, did you build your own tools?
Speaker 5 00:18:46 If you didn't build your own tools, then like you're somehow less valid as like an artist or a creator. Um, but I don't feel like that's the case because like realistically, like people who are real artists are using Photoshop every day. Right. Just because you're doing something that isn't, like, that's a little bit less like mainstream doesn't mean that like using a tool someone else made makes your work less valid anyway. Right. I've struggled with that a little bit. I don't know if you <laugh> how that, if that is something that resonates with you or not with like building on other people's frameworks sometimes feeling less Oh, yeah. Uh, genuine.
Speaker 4 00:19:32 Oh, sure. Yeah. I mean, it's just amazing how many ways that can turn up in a process. Right. And for any of us in whatever medium we're working in, I think like there's always a way to like stumble into that feeling of like, oh, I'm not as valid. I'm not, I'm less than because I didn't invent this or build that or, um, and I mean, I think in the world of contemporary performance, if if that's what we're calling what I'm doing, I mean, it's impossible to ever feel like I'm not like directly referencing something someone already did. Um, and the best I feel like I can hope for is to be making it from a place that genuinely comes from my own curiosity and trusting that if that's the case, then I'm going to find something about it that is, um, I don't know that is,
Speaker 4 00:20:36 I don't wanna say it's not unique to me, but maybe it serves what I'm doing in a way that can, um, bring a new light to it for someone who's viewing it. If I'm trying to give a specific example, like if I'm talking about the tape recorders that I'm using, for example, like so many people have used tape recorders in their work. Right. And I could really get hung up on, oh, well this idea has been explored. Like, I don't, there's no room for me to explore it, but I feel like I really enjoy working with them mm-hmm. <affirmative> and they're bringing up a whole lot of new things for me and teaching me a lot about what I'm capable of or what I'm interested in. And so I feel like I have to keep using them. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, <laugh>. Um, yeah, I don't know. I feel like that stuff's everywhere. Those, those ways to like kind of, um, stop trusting our validity as artists or something. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah.
Speaker 5 00:21:36 Definitely.
Speaker 4 00:21:37 Yeah. I think it's interesting too that you mentioned like this origin, or at least part of the origin of Glitch Art being this like, oh, it's fucked up, but it's cool. So let's, let's try and figure out how to mm-hmm. <affirmative> make that as an aesthetic choice. And that the thing that you surprised yourself with so far in this residency has been like the prince of your glitch art and how, um, you kind of stumbled upon it unexpectedly. And I don't know, I think that's interesting that this idea of the fuck up or the accidental kind of, um, fed into your time here in that way with that specific kind of aesthetic.
Speaker 5 00:22:20 Yeah, that's, yeah, I didn't really think about that when I was going through it because the, the image transfer process I'm using is mostly as far as I can tell, um, a thing that housewives do to like, take pictures of their, their family and their dog and transfer them to different things. Oh yeah. <laugh>. Um, and it's, the YouTube videos are adorable. Yes. <laugh> it's like, like, you know, like Southern Housewives being like, okay honey, this is how you do this and also this is how you do it if you don't wanna mess up your manicure <laugh>.
Speaker 4 00:22:54 Yes. This is all relevant info.
Speaker 5 00:22:57 Right. Yeah. Sometimes you need to know
Speaker 4 00:22:59 <laugh>. You do. And they figured it out <laugh>. Yeah. And they're letting you know. Yes. I love a, I love a YouTube rabbit hole of just like a very specific world mm-hmm. <affirmative> and people who have really spent some time with it and are like, willing to make tons and tons of videos about it. It's really fun.
Speaker 5 00:23:18 It's really
Speaker 4 00:23:18 Cute. Yeah. Yeah. I know that my time out here has been very solitary. I think I've talked to you all <laugh> or the other residents, like maybe four times total. Um, and I am, we talked about this a little bit, but like, I'm definitely pretty comfortable alone and spend a lot of time alone. And so it's not something totally new, but I have noticed a little bit of like desire to like talk to other people, have conversations, that kind of thing. And I guess my question around that is, is like what has your time out here felt pretty solitary as well? And if so, is that typically how your process feels? Or are you generally working with other people or in community? Mm-hmm.
Speaker 5 00:24:11 <affirmative>. Yeah. I feel like that's a complicated thing cuz some parts of my general practice is very solitary and other parts are very community based. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and I also feel like I've been less isolated here because I have, uh, have a housemate. Right. Um, so like someone around, um, uh, but most of my time in the studio has been by myself, which is, it's nice actually. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, cuz there's often other people just around when I'm working, um, at home. Like, not necessarily on the same things, but just like in the same area mm-hmm. <affirmative> and it's, it's different to like, have less like humanness mm-hmm. <affirmative> just like the general area. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 4 00:25:16 Yeah.
Speaker 4 00:25:19 Yeah. It's, um, yeah, it's been interesting to feel like, I know everyone's around. I sometimes see people walking to their studio, but I feel like maybe the energy of like, everyone really like working a way on whatever they're doing. Um, and I think I'm just getting to the point where I'm like really curious and I wanna hear about it and I wanna talk about it. And, um, I guess I'm noticing, I think maybe my relationship to a more solitary working process has changed since, um, lockdown and all of that stuff. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and I find myself kind of, um, needing to talk through things a bit more mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And what I'm also realizing is that there's a certain kind of pressure and, uh, imposter syndrome that comes up like right before a show for me mm-hmm. <affirmative>, like right before I'm gonna make it public and like show it to a bunch of people.
Speaker 4 00:26:29 And I always think about that feeling, um, when I, you know, think about the ways imposter syndrome or just like self-doubt comes up in my process, think about that context of like pre-show stress, but now I'm like, oh no, there's a whole world of, um, self-doubt and self-criticism that comes up when I'm making things without any sort of outside perspective because I start to doubt myself and I start to think that maybe I'm just, um, what's that term? I guess maybe naval gazing and I'm, and I'm not, um, I'm not actually making anything that would matter to anyone else. Um, and it's hard to know when I'm just like alone in the studio whether or not any of it has any impact outside of myself. And so I'm getting familiar with this kind of new way of doubting myself, I guess that's what I'm saying. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> with like, just being alone without sharing, um mm-hmm. <affirmative> is its own kind of scary place for me.
Speaker 5 00:27:44 Yeah.
Speaker 4 00:27:44 Yeah.
Speaker 5 00:27:45 I dunno. Yeah. Not having that feedback like in the process. Like there's no one else to show the thing to. So like <laugh>. Yeah. And it's hard to see like perspective of like what someone else takes away from a thing, right?
Speaker 4 00:28:04 Yeah, yeah, yeah. <laugh>. Yeah, it is, it's really funny because I'm like, yeah, this stuff is cool. <laugh>, this is beautiful, this sounds awesome. <laugh> <laugh>. I'm like, but if anyone else were in here, would they just be like, Allie, no. <laugh>. That is just a bunch of like, nonsense that doesn't work. Um, which it could totally be and that would totally be fine. Like, I could throw it all away, I guess. But anyway. Yeah. I guess I'm just noticing halfway through the residency, like this desire, like, I think I need a little more <laugh> input, you know? Yeah.
Speaker 5 00:28:41 Well, I mean, there's folks around you probably. Yeah.
Speaker 4 00:28:45 Yeah, yeah. I gotta take some initiative, invite people in, I guess. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 5 00:28:51 Yeah. And didn't, um, am I wrong in remembering that you mentioned that you might be interested in sharing your piece in its entirety while you're here?
Speaker 4 00:29:02 Yeah. That would be really cool. Yeah. I, I, I will, I feel like it's kind of necessary for the reasons I'm mentioning. Um, I need to document it for one thing and then it's just always better to have people watching mm-hmm. <affirmative>, cuz that added, I don't know, the audience activates in a way that's just like, so particular and important and why I make performance at all <laugh>. I'm really not interested in just performing alone in a studio. So, I mean, as most performers are, I'm interested in sharing with people. So yeah, I do plan to do that, but it's also like, I don't wanna take up anyone's time. You know, like all of those feelings come up too. Totally. Yeah.
Speaker 5 00:29:47 I mean, if people don't wanna come, they don't wanna show up. They don't. Exactly. So I'm excited to maybe get to see your piece at some point,
Speaker 4 00:29:55 So thanks. Yeah. I'm excited to see what you're working on too. If you share it with us.
Speaker 5 00:29:59 I probably will, I'd like to get feedback like, on like, because like, especially because like I'm doing things that I haven't done before mm-hmm. <affirmative>, like, it's not, um, like most of, I've never taken this, my digital work out of the digital realm and doing that is like, it's a, there's a little bit of anxiety with it mm-hmm. <affirmative> because it's not, um, it's not the medium that it was created for and taking art out of, its like intended medium changes it, right. Like Right. Whether for good or not. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, like, yeah.
Speaker 4 00:30:43 Yeah. Right. Do you have a sense of like, um, how, like, which, so I know you're, you're, you're doing photo transfers mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and then you were also talking about making a choose your own adventure book.
Speaker 5 00:31:02 Yeah. Yeah. Um, well, I mean, technically not a choose your own adventure. Okay. Um, because that is a copyrighted thing. Oh. Or maybe it's not copyrighted anymore, but it was like, it was a specific brand, um mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but, uh, interactive fiction, which is sort of in the same like, uh, branching non-linear narrative type thing. Nice. Um, that's not, that concept is not copyrighted. Yeah. And it's used in a lot of different spaces, like as, um, there's a whole community of people who make, um, interactive fiction online. Oh. And there's, uh, there's a couple yearly like contests, which are really cute, is people always put their, their their best work in there. And it's often, they're often really, really, really fun.
Speaker 4 00:31:51 Oh,
Speaker 5 00:31:51 Nice. Yeah. And, uh, most, pretty much any video game, um, that has a storyline is, has, is an interactive, um, nonlinear narrative. Unless you're the type of person who tries to play the video game and get all of the endings all at all at once, which is usually not
Speaker 4 00:32:11 Possible. Right, right.
Speaker 5 00:32:12 Whoa. Um, but every once in a while there's, there's that one, one person, <laugh> <laugh>. It's like, I need to, I need to know all the endings,
Speaker 4 00:32:22 Uhhuh <laugh>, um,
Speaker 5 00:32:24 Yeah. I don't have that much free time.
Speaker 4 00:32:26 Yeah. <laugh>, that's a lot of free time. Do you play video games?
Speaker 5 00:32:31 I do. Not as much as I used to. Uhhuh <affirmative> at this point, I mostly play video games, um, for research. Right. Um, which is fun, but it's not the same kind of fun as playing them just because you're like, I wanna play a silly game. Yeah.
Speaker 4 00:32:46 Yeah. Um, do you have a favorite,
Speaker 5 00:32:49 A favorite game? Yeah,
Speaker 4 00:32:50 There's a couple
Speaker 5 00:32:52 <laugh>. Um, okay. This is sort of like a shameless plug for my friend's game. Yes. <laugh>. Um, so, uh, my friend Megan Byrne, um, is a indigenous game developer and she's in, uh, the development process for, uh, a science fiction war game where you play in like a future science fiction world and you're an indigenous, uh, private detective who has to go on all of these adventures to, uh, to solve the cases. And, uh, I'm really excited for it. I've gotten to play some of the early releases. Yeah. And it's, it's really fun.
Speaker 4 00:33:34 <laugh>. That's great. Yeah. Nice. I, yeah, I, um, I don't, I don't play video games really. Uh, I, not because I don't like them, but because if I start them I think I won't ever stop. Like, I get really like, hyper focused and like kind of obsessed and like never wanna quit. So I, um, I don't often start playing them. I've tried a couple. I also feel like, sorry, this is a little bit of a tangent, but in the video games, the more recent ones that are like more three-dimensional, where you're like really kind of looking around the space versus like the 2D games I grew up with, like Super Mario or whatever mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I get really disoriented and a little motion sick <laugh> mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I feel like that kind of deters me a little bit. And I honestly don't really know how so many people spend so many hours in that like, environment. I feel like I would just be kind of lost.
Speaker 5 00:34:43 Yeah. <laugh>, a lot of games are not, like the technology has not calibrated them in a way where they're like super, um, accessible for everyone. Yeah. Right. Um, cuz they are disorienting mm-hmm. <affirmative> and like, sometimes you can like adjust the controls so like, um, they don't move so fast, but other times you
Speaker 4 00:35:06 Can't. Yeah.
Speaker 5 00:35:07 <laugh> and, yeah. No, I feel you on that. Cause I'm not, yeah. I'm also not like great with a lot of the, especially like 3D shooters. Oh yeah. Um, I feel like they are very disorienting and the controls are not, um, they, they don't like jive with my system. Yeah. Super well. Yeah. Um,
Speaker 4 00:35:29 Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I'm relieved to hear I'm not the only one who experienced
Speaker 5 00:35:33 You are Absolutely not. Yeah.
Speaker 4 00:35:35 <laugh>.
Speaker 5 00:35:35 Yeah.
Speaker 4 00:35:36 Yeah.
Speaker 5 00:35:37 And also like the, a lot of the shooting games are, um, at least partially funded by the US military. Yeah. They're like intentional propaganda Of course. Um, yeah. And it, so I feel like doubly not great about them. Um, yeah. In like the early two thousands, the US military tried to make their own video game as a recruitment tactic. And it was like in the like, recruitment offices and they'd be like, Hey kids, come play this video game. This is what Laura's like. But it was really bad and so people didn't, it didn't work. So they just started funding game studios instead.
Speaker 4 00:36:19 Oh, that's
Speaker 5 00:36:20 Really, it's really gross.
Speaker 4 00:36:22 <laugh>. I hate that so much. Oh no. Yeah, they're everywhere.
Speaker 5 00:36:28 I know
Speaker 4 00:36:28 You can't. Oh, yeah,
Speaker 5 00:36:33 Yeah.
Speaker 4 00:36:35 Yeah. It would be really easy. Yeah. I'm not, yeah. We promised we wouldn't only talk about the military <laugh>. I know. Cause we're on an old fort cause we're on an old military for <laugh> and there's a lot to talk about. It's true. But it's okay. We don't, yeah. <laugh> we'll have to focus on that. Um, some other things. One thing we thought to talk about <laugh> was favorite the idea of a favorite project. Oh, yes. Favorite or are they the same? Ooh. Oh, <laugh>.
Speaker 5 00:37:19 Yeah. I, this is a, a way better. Good segue from Yeah.
Speaker 4 00:37:24 <laugh> <laugh>. Oh, is it? Yes. Now I wanna know the other segue.
Speaker 5 00:37:29 Um, I didn't really have one. I was just like, oh my gosh, how do we <laugh> how do, how do we head this off at the past before we start getting deep into talking about the military industrial
Speaker 4 00:37:38 Confidence <laugh>.
Speaker 5 00:37:41 Anyway, but yeah. About like, um, favorites and least favorites. Mm-hmm. Oh gosh. Yeah. Um, it's hard. I often, my favorites are the ones that I'm currently working on. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, cause I, I don't have a lot of object permanence, so
Speaker 4 00:38:04 <laugh> <laugh>, so <laugh>. That's amazing. <laugh>.
Speaker 5 00:38:10 So I'll almost always tell people that my favorite project is the one that I'm working on unless I'm really struggling with it. Yeah. And then I'll be like, this is my least favorite project. I
Speaker 4 00:38:21 Need it <laugh>. Yeah.
Speaker 5 00:38:22 It's the worst thing.
Speaker 4 00:38:24 <laugh>. <laugh>. Yeah. And then is it like two weeks later you're like, this is the best, my favorite of all time. Yeah. Yeah. <laugh>. I know that's kind of my, like <laugh>, one of the things I love best about working on things is just like the range of relationship to it that you discover and like how frustrating it can all be. And then how rewarding. Yeah. <laugh> also, yeah. A lot of peaks and troughs. A lot of peaks and troughs. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and like a lot of plateaus also. Yeah. A lot of time where I'm just like, I think this is working. Yeah. I'm continuing so it's gonna keep happening. But like, there's a lot of time, especially in the normal day to day, like in my normal process world where like I also work my four jobs and like have a ton of other stuff that I have to relate with mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
Speaker 4 00:39:23 And there will just be sometimes weeks where I'm not directly engaging with the material. Um, but a lot is happening behind the scenes, which is something I've learned over the years, but like, then coming back to it after a couple of weeks say, I'm like, whoa, I was really on a trip here. Let's see if I can get back to that same sort of mindset. And then sometimes I can't mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so sometimes it does feel like it takes direction depending on how and when I'm able to engage with it, you know, which is also interesting. But yeah. I'm with you. I think often my favorite thing is the thing I'm working on because it feels new and like still unknown. And um, but, and then also my least favorite because it feels new and unknown. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> <laugh>.
Speaker 4 00:40:17 But I also think that my favorite thing I've ever made that is not the current thing I'm working on is a solo that I made called now then a prologue. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, which was my first evening length piece that I made that was primarily text-based and not super dependent on like, recognizable choreography. I was highly choreographed, but like not, um, a typical mm-hmm. <affirmative> way that a choreography could look. Um, and it was one of those projects that like, just sort of came outta nowhere. Like I had never written text, I had never planned to make a show that was an hour long with a lot of talking. And yet I did. And it was really satisfying. And I still look at that as like kind of a moment where I learned how um, my own projects could look and like what other possibilities are there. And if I'm telling the honest truth, I really don't like choreographing movement. I'm actually pretty bad at it <laugh>. And I'm totally comfortable admitting that cuz some people are really good at it and I am just not one of those people mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So it was nice to be like, oh, great, I don't have to just choreograph a bunch of movement because that's what I think I should be doing because I'm bad at it. So, great. Here's another option. So that's one other answer for me.
Speaker 5 00:41:45 Totally. Yeah. Yeah. While, um, you were talking something that I, that sort of came up for me is that, um, like our question, like what is your, um, least favorite or like most favorite, um, as far as that's like a really intense duality and I was like, what we have been talking about rather than like least favorite or, or, or most favorite is like, like what is new and what new processes are and like what would be, what might have like made more, like, what I would probably ask in the future is like, what, what project feels like an old friend and what project feels like a new shiny Yeah.
Speaker 4 00:42:34 Um, n r e <laugh>.
Speaker 5 00:42:36 Yeah, exactly. New relationship energy <laugh> type of thing. <laugh>. Yeah.
Speaker 4 00:42:40 <laugh>. That's such a good question. Yeah. Yeah. What about you? Do you know?
Speaker 5 00:42:45 Oh gosh. Um, as far as like, um, there's, yeah, there's, um, there's a, a game that I made in the beginning of the pandemic that was like, very much about movement and earth. Um, and there was a lot of themes in there that I had been working on for a while and that feels like both old and new. Um, yeah. And I like it hasn't I, I've only shown it once, but it feels like very like, like it could like show up anywhere. Yeah. Really? Yeah.
Speaker 4 00:43:33 Oh, wow. You just mean like, not just, you mean like, uh, like the themes within it? Yeah.
Speaker 5 00:43:41 Could kind imagine. It didn't feel like it was just a pandemic project type of thing because like some of my projects and maybe some of yours at that time were very like processing the things that were happening. Um, for
Speaker 4 00:43:53 Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, does that project have a name?
Speaker 5 00:43:58 Um, yes. I suddenly forgot the name. Yeah.
Speaker 4 00:44:03 <laugh>
Speaker 5 00:44:03 And, um, sorry, I have a little bit. 80. That's okay. I can't
Speaker 4 00:44:08 Remember. Shane. We can, if it comes in your head, just spit it out <laugh> at any point. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, I love that frame of it. Um, what piece feels like an old friend? I mean, I think for me, the, the like, first thing I ever really self-produced, you know, when I kinda struck out on my own as a independent maker, it was called like a son that pours forth light, but never warmth. I've never been good at short titles, <laugh>. Um, and it was, I don't know, I just think it's my old friend in that I, I haven't been able to watch it in years because I think I would just feel too many feelings about it. Um, but it kind of stands as this, I don't know, it was like the first thing I really completed, you know? And I had an idea and I figured it out.
Speaker 4 00:45:10 I figured out how to get the money, I figured out how to make it happen. And it just felt like this moment where I was like, okay, I can do this. I do have the wherewithal and the skills. And, um, so I think that one will forever feel really close to me, even if I don't particularly quote unquote like it still mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know? Um, yeah. And then of course the new shiny one n r e one feels like whatever I'm working on right now, <laugh>, because I'm like, yeah, singing is awesome. <laugh> <laugh>. It's really fun. It really is fun. Wow. <laugh> and I mean, I've known that through karaoke and I was in choir as a young person and, um, but how fun to, like, I really, now I know what all those experimental musicians are <laugh> about all the time. <laugh>. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Also just listening to you talk about like that moment of pandemic art, art in a pandemic, that kind of thing.
Speaker 4 00:46:21 And just like oof the ways it, um, I mean, God, there's so much to say about it, but just how performers were like, all right, we make performance for Zoom. Like that is what we're doing. <laugh>. Yeah. And there was a frustration in that of course. But there was also this delightful, like everyone kind of being as new at it as anyone else. Yeah. And so everyone feeling really, like the playing field was pretty level where it's like mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Oh yeah. Oh, green screen. Totally <laugh>. Yeah. Let's explore that. And like, I don't know, it was kind of, um, in the midst of all the awfulness that was that moment, like there was also this kind of delightful playfulness that was happening mm-hmm. <affirmative> and everyone got to sort of be navigating it at the same time. Um, and I actually learned a lot from that, I think. Yeah,
Speaker 5 00:47:18 Yeah,
Speaker 4 00:47:18 Yeah.
Speaker 5 00:47:22 Yeah. I, I was, um, collaborating a choreographer during that time and we had like a lot of shows planned right. For 2020, and they all got moved to Zoom mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And it was actually really fun watching everyone be figuring out like, what part of my house am I going to use as a set? Am I going to move from different parts of my house and like, create different sets? Am I gonna do green screen? Like that was actually really fun.
Speaker 4 00:47:54 Yeah. <laugh>. Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad we were all able, or not all. I, I'm glad some of us were able to find some fun <laugh> Yeah. In that moment. I, my apartment is just one room and so I was like, there's only this one room and so we're working with whatever we got, you know? Yeah. Um, and that had its own hilarious pleasures to it as well, I guess. Yeah. Um, don't think we can end it on pandemic talk.
Speaker 5 00:48:28 No, that's no fun.
Speaker 4 00:48:29 We can find something else. <laugh> <laugh>.
Speaker 5 00:48:35 Oh, here's something that we didn't talk about yet. Um, did, what expectations did you have for yourself when you came here? For, to Fort Warden? Yeah. For this residency and how have those changed?
Speaker 4 00:48:49 Yeah. Right. For me, I came expecting, um, to like not really work on this project super intensely. I was like, whatever comes up, comes up. But like, this is really a time for me to get back into my body. I've had some injuries, um, time for me to really just like listen to what my body wants and I'm gonna follow that and the desire is gonna lead the way. And that has, that aspect of it has happened, but what my desire has ended up leading me to maybe because singing does feel so healing in that way, or like comforting to the body. I have really ended up working on the project like way more intensely than I expected. Um, and then one thing I did expect that has happened, I was like, I wanna take as many walks as possible in this place. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and I have taken a lot of walks and the walks are truly the highlights of my day. It is. This place is unbelievable.
Speaker 5 00:49:54 It's so
Speaker 4 00:49:55 Beautiful. Yeah.
Speaker 5 00:49:56 Yeah.
Speaker 4 00:49:57 Yeah. Being by the water, I thrive being by the water. I'm just so happy to be by the water <laugh>. Yeah. So, yeah, those are some things for me. How about you?
Speaker 5 00:50:07 Yeah, I, oh gosh. Like, I just want to mention being by the water is great. Yeah. I have a, a thing that I've mentioned in a couple of the things that I've written that like, the tides are the heartbeat of the earth. Yes. And I really, like every time I'm next to like, the ocean crashing, like I feel like that's, anyway mm-hmm.
Speaker 4 00:50:30 <affirmative> mm-hmm.
Speaker 5 00:50:31 <affirmative>. Um, but yeah, as far as, uh, expectations for myself, oh gosh, I, so like, I, I come out to this area semi-regularly cuz I have friends in the area mm-hmm. <affirmative> and I use it sort of as like, sort of like a little bit of a reset from like city stress. Um, and I was hoping that this would be similarly and found like when I first got here that it wasn't, um, just because like, uh, I don't know, there's like, I felt like there was expectations to still like be like working hard and hustling, but those were sort of like expectations that I'd put on myself mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, uh, cause I was like, I'm here and I'm technically like working, I'm at work
Speaker 4 00:51:18 Yeah. <laugh>.
Speaker 5 00:51:21 And I was like, this is not nurturing actually that this mindset is not nurturing and great for actually either working or for like, um, like sort of like, uh, centering myself mm-hmm. <affirmative> outside of like, like a hustle. Um, and like getting back to like what really matters, which honestly is like the land. Yeah. Um, and, uh, so like I had to like, have a little conversation with myself and like go on more walks and like, um, not like ha like not like orient myself towards like deadlines or anything. Right. Like, not be like, I wanna have a thing done by the time I'm finished here. Like Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 4 00:52:07 That conversation with self really resonates with me too. Like, I think I, uh, anytime I've been in a residency context that like first week is really like the work for me feels like reminding myself that it's not like a hyper work scenario. Yeah. It doesn't have to be that. Yeah. Sometimes people have deadlines and it's real, but like, I don't, so I was like, I found that first week was I had to be like, I found myself saying, okay, I wanna do this, but that's not necessarily quote unquote productive mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I'd have to be like, Allie, it's great. Go for it. It's what you wanna do, you can, it's fine. <laugh> like, yeah. But it just was this sort of recurring conversation that I had to have with myself was like, it's okay, you can do it. Yeah. Go for it. You know, <laugh> instead of like, but if I do that, if I go for a walk now, <laugh>. Right. I would've only been in the studio two hours before taking a break. Like all these like weird rules that I had set for myself that didn't even realize I had set for myself too. Yeah. Yeah. So it's nice to be a little further in and more accustomed to the flow. Yeah. It feels good. Yeah. Yeah. Well it was delightful talking to
Speaker 5 00:53:23 You. Same.
Speaker 4 00:53:24 Yeah. A conversation.
Speaker 6 00:53:28 Thank you for joining us today. This podcast was recorded and edited by staff at Centrum. Music is by Tabor Dark and Cover Hard is by Leon Finley, both alums of centrums Residency program. If you've enjoyed this series, please check out our archive of Artist Conversations and other podcasts available wherever you listen. Leave us a review and share with a friend that helps support and head over to centrum.org to learn about our programs, become a participant or donate. We are grateful to have you in our creative community and look forward to bringing you more conversations from artists and creatives.
