Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:01 Welcome to this Centrum podcast. For more podcasts or to join Centrum programs Building Creativity in Community, visit us at centrum org.
Speaker 2 00:00:25 I'm Michelle Haywood, and this is On Air, a podcast focusing on conversations with artists and creatives. From Centrums residency community. I am broadcasting to you from the lands and waters of the coast, Salish people in a place known as Katai to the Squa people, and today known as Port Towns in Washington. This podcast is focused on bringing artists together in community to explore the ways that place, process, and the personal intersect. We dive into the many ways that artists are responding to the current times affecting change and finding sustenance during health, climate, and social crisis. Join us and take an hour to be in residence and unpack your own relationships to creativity, time and place. Thank you for being here and enjoy this episode.
Speaker 2 00:01:21 Hi, and welcome back. I am excited to bring you another installment from our 2022 podcast series with our artists and writers who were in residence in October of 2022. And this was our ninth year of the Emerging Artist Residency Program. And the first year that we had an emerging writer's cohort coordinated by our program manager for writers, George Marie, who you'll hear from later in this series. And as a result, we have five conversations. We'll be bringing you one of those today. And out of all those conversations, it's a total of 10 individuals who joined us for the month of October. And this group of residents received stipends, housing, and studio spaces, but most importantly, they were encouraged to take this time to rest, recover, and tend to all the things they're necessary for the creative processes to take place. For this series, we ask the residents to pair up among themselves and interview each other.
Speaker 2 00:02:33 This format seeks to capture the essence of what happens during a residency where an individuals have lots of solo time, but also have chances to connect with each other and share surprising details about their lives and pursuits and processes unfettered by a formal interviewer or agenda. In today's conversation, we will hear Christian Vista and Josephine Lee illuminate the threads that connect their work and the ways that materials and water serve as physical and metaphorical keystone to both of their practices. Both of these artists, one, working in Painting and the other in biomaterials, find that they share interests in the ways that regeneration, repair, and nourishment play central roles. These two people bring deep insights into each other's practices, and you'll wanna look at images of their work as they talk and transport you into that very special place of the artist's mind. Enjoy.
Speaker 5 00:03:38 Hi. Hi,
Speaker 4 00:03:40 <laugh>. How are you?
Speaker 5 00:03:41 I, I'm good. Yeah, I'm good. Yeah. Um, I'm Christian. I am an artist, and, uh, yeah, I like, I also curate and write. Um, I mostly make paintings. I'm based, uh, in Delta and Vancouver, uh, British Columbia on, um, unseated, Musqueam, Squamish, SLE Tooth and SUA Territories. Um, um, yeah.
Speaker 4 00:04:23 Oh, um, I'm Josephine. I'm also, uh, from Vancouver, uh, and based in kind of the, I guess like Easter mainland part of Vancouver, um, on the territories, unseated territories of the Squamish Leu tooth and Musqueam Peoples. Um, I have been there very long. I guess it's only been, I guess a handful of years. Uh, and oh, I'm a artist. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>,
Speaker 5 00:05:01 Nice,
Speaker 4 00:05:03 Uh, interdisciplinary artist. I work through all mediums, um, and ranges. And I also have a background in, uh, science. And so I work, um, lots of my work kind of deal with, uh, science and technology in some way. Yeah,
Speaker 5 00:05:26 I didn't know that. Oh, <laugh>, the backward, the background in science.
Speaker 4 00:05:30 Yeah. I did my first undergrad in, um, uh, a Bachelor in Science in Agriculture and Oh, wow. Animal science. Animal science, and, um, a little bit of like soil science, I guess. Environmental science. Okay. Yeah.
Speaker 5 00:05:46 That's cool. Yeah. That, that makes sense actually.
Speaker 4 00:05:49 Oh, does it <laugh> <laugh>?
Speaker 5 00:05:52 I think so.
Speaker 4 00:05:53 Um,
Speaker 5 00:05:54 So what, I guess, yeah, what have you been up to here, <laugh>?
Speaker 4 00:05:58 Oh, uh, well, uh, I've been working on a project working, um, on a project that I've been kind of fiddling with for the past year and a half, I guess. Um, and it primarily deals with creating, um, biomaterials, which are kind of like different ways to make sustainable, um, materials like glass, ceramics, concrete plastics. Um, for all intense purposes, they, they look like those materials, but they're either like biodegradable or compostable in some, some way, and they use that, um, to kind of, um, for a larger sort of, um, exploration of, uh, environmental and racial equity within our society. And yeah. How about you, Christian <laugh>, what have you even up to at Centro?
Speaker 5 00:07:02 Um, that's really cool what you just said. I, yeah. I'll, uh, yeah, I have a question, but, um, yeah, I've been so mostly here or like here, I've been painting a bunch and, um, yeah, kind of trying to, uh, have a show coming up, uh, in December,
Speaker 4 00:07:28 <laugh>. Congratulations.
Speaker 5 00:07:29 Uh, yeah. I guess it's like a, what do you call it? It's a plug. Yeah. <laugh> <laugh>. It's a unit that everybody
Speaker 4 00:07:35 Go see it.
Speaker 5 00:07:36 Yeah. Go see it. Um, but, uh, yeah, so I'm tr kind of trying to develop like a body of work or like, not even a, just like a bunch of work for that show and kind of, I don't know. I find that here, it feels like a lot of the things that I've been think, I think I'm trying to like, coalesce a lot of the things that I've been thinking about into this show. I, I think because it's like also like a, I don't know, it's like a solo show, which feels like a kind of, I don't know, it's like your mo your like, opportunity to like, present yourself in the way that you want to. Like, in kind of also like in around like, it's like, I kind of think of it as like, uh, you're like making your own context or something. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 5 00:08:34 Because it's like just your things in a room, you know, no one else's or like nothing else really. So I feel like I'm trying to like really get to de like a bunch of ideas that I've been thinking about over the past couple of years. And, um, yeah. Like a lot of those things revolve around this idea of, or like the materiality of water, um, as a, yeah, just like the materiality of water and how important it is in, I think, I mean in, um, I don't know. It's like such an important material in like, artistic practice, and I think that's something that I'm trying to, uh, work with as well as like, also like how it relates to certain parts of like, my experience as like part of the Filipino diaspora and how, um, water is so central to that, just like this. Yeah. Um, yeah.
Speaker 4 00:09:46 Yeah, it's really exciting. Um, yeah, I think, uh, we discussed this, I guess in one of our previous unrecorded discussions, <laugh> mm-hmm. <affirmative>, our chats. Um, and I was really fascinated by your, uh, exploration of water, uh, and the way that you, the way that you kind of examine it in terms of your paintings. And I was wondering if you can, do
Speaker 5 00:10:19 You wanna Oh, yeah. Make paintings
Speaker 4 00:10:20 <laugh>. Sorry.
Speaker 5 00:10:21 I said, oh, yeah. I make paintings.
Speaker 4 00:10:23 <laugh>. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You, you did to say that at the beginning mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, but I was wondering if you wanted to speak a little bit more about that, because it is such a central feature and, uh, thematic.
Speaker 5 00:10:36 Yeah. Like your paintings with water.
Speaker 4 00:10:40 Yeah,
Speaker 5 00:10:41 Yeah. Yeah. I guess, yeah, I think, um, painting with water, um, yeah, I think I paint or like the way that I've been painting has been kind of this, uh, yeah, it's like, just like a way that I develop, uh, it's a way that it's a way of painting that I've developed, like where I paint with just like, I paint kind of just with the paint and water, and then the substrate, like, and the substrates usually, or like the, uh, like it's usually paper or muslin and usually like, un un uh, there's like, I don't make a ground, so like, usually you would use a Jesu or something to paint on, but I just paint directly on the material. And I think initially when I did that, I was kind of thinking about this idea of, um, unground or like eliminating the ground of the paintings and like, how, I don't know, it's like almost like a play on words, but like how that kind of, like, I was relating that to immigrating and like the idea of, um, being on a different ground or like, kind of like ungrounding yourself from your, from where you were and like coming to a different place.
Speaker 5 00:12:16 Um, and I guess like I wanted to see what my marks or what kind, what would happen to my marks without a ground. Um, and I mean, yeah. And I, I kind of learned that like, this way of working with water and like paper or muslin, like what happens to the Marxist, they become to me like really, um, consequential in that they like seep into the fibers of the material that you're painting on. So they, um, yeah, like they change the material in a way, but they also feel like they, because they're kind of, they seep in there and also it's like water based, like everything that you put on top of those marks and, uh, affecting, or like the previous marks end up affecting the ones that come after. So there's like this sense of, um, lineage in, uh, the mark making, or like in the, in the painting, I think that's like only possible because it's like a water, because it's like water based and like, because all these different, the paint, the paper, the mu like, all these different materials respond to water in a particular way. Mm-hmm. And, um, yeah, I was like really kind of drawn to that thing you said like the other day at the beach about thinking about hybridity or like you were saying how, like in, you're basically talking about hybridity in like paint and water and like this kind of like, entanglement of water and paint as a kind of hybridity. I thought that was just so like, uh, yeah, I was, yeah, I was,
Speaker 4 00:14:18 Yeah. I, I, I really like how you, you talk about that, um, and the word that you use just like lineage, because it seems such a, it seems like such a important, um, an important kind of word for all the things that you're ex describing and how you explore diaspora and sort of like the, the function of the water within your paintings as a medium, but also as like this, um, like, like this fluid, um, vast body, um, that kind of bisects where you were from mm-hmm. <affirmative> and where you are. And, but at the same time, it like seeps and it saturates through all these different layers and these distortions or abstractions of your paintings mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so there is a, I think that's, it's, um, for me something very compelling about that is the, that it, it, um, there is no like stopping the, the like sort of that, uh, that through line mm-hmm. <affirmative> that seems to work its way between the material that you're using and the histories that you're exploring and the, like, whether they're emotional or spiritual or, or, um, physical, um, just like the, the ex the, yeah. Like all of those things seem to kind of combine itself through water and the, and, and so I guess what I was wondering, like also, um, and you don't have to <laugh> answer all my questions all at once, but, um, uh, I was just wondering about also how that plays into like, abstraction in your paintings mm-hmm.
Speaker 5 00:16:11 <affirmative>.
Speaker 4 00:16:11 Yeah.
Speaker 5 00:16:12 Like how,
Speaker 4 00:16:14 How that diffusion or that saturation or that entanglement mm-hmm. <affirmative> or as a, like I was mentioning hybridity, like how of how all of that seems to, um, play itself out in your, in your kind of, um, choices of like abstraction
Speaker 5 00:16:31 Mm-hmm. <affirmative> that's so uhhuh <affirmative>. Yeah. I think, I mean, the way that I make paintings is um, hmm. Yeah. In relation to abstraction, it's actually kind of, it's a hard question, but yeah. I think it's just this way of, I guess. Okay. Yeah. I think there's this way when I'm painting, I like think about kind of, uh, like this, I feel like I'm, sometimes I'm trying to describe something that's hard, that's like hard to describe. Hmm. Or like, maybe like something kind of Yeah. Like ineffable or even like, you're like sensing it in the dark or something. Or like you're like, you know, like the way that you, when at, at night when you're trying to like, make out something but you don't know what it is. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I kind of relate that. Or like, I think to me, the experience of making a painting is like similar to that, this way of like, trying to like make it out, um, without knowing exactly what it is.
Speaker 5 00:17:53 And so you're, yeah. I guess like you're sensing it and you're like, just like watching it kind of like appear slowly. And I think working with water is kind of, I don't know, to me it's conducive to that because there's like a, such a, uh, I mean, I often also like think about like the, um, water time or like the like amount of time that like water takes to dry or just because like, I think how when, how, uh, something looks when it's wet is so different than, or like a wet thing looks so different than a dry thing. And I think that like the, between that, um, time of like wetness and dryness, I feel like there's so much, I don't know, like there's so much of, uh, thought that happens in there for me. And I think definitely like the, like wet mark influences the kind of, I don't know, like what it looks like once it's dry and like, even I even sometimes try to like emulate like a wet mark with like, you know, like I try to like anticipate those things.
Speaker 5 00:19:12 And so, yeah, I guess it's kind of, yeah. This way of like, describe trying to describe something and like, I think like that's also the thing that's like also a quality of water, right? Is that it? If anything, it describes the things around it. Like water doesn't really describe itself. It like takes the shape of like, whatever is trying to contain it, whether that be like an ocean or like a cup, actually. Like I've been, like I watched <laugh>, a Bruce Lee documentary, the other guy Yeah. And yes, this really famous Yeah. Quota about water that, uh, people can look up
Speaker 4 00:19:51 <laugh>. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, I love that quote.
Speaker 5 00:19:54 Yeah. It's so,
Speaker 4 00:19:55 Yeah. And it just takes the shape of whatever Uhhuh vessel
Speaker 5 00:19:58 Or, well, and then like he, there's like this, the part in it where he talks about like how water is soft mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, but it's like
Speaker 4 00:20:06 Also like, like it's one of the strongest things.
Speaker 5 00:20:09 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I guess that's kind of, I mean that's like, feels like a good segue to your work about like, I think cuz it's like, there's like a lot of soft things mm-hmm. <affirmative> or like, it like starts as soft too. Mm. And it gets hard
Speaker 4 00:20:25 Oh, like the biomaterials? Yeah.
Speaker 5 00:20:27 Yeah. Or like the way that like, I guess that like the different, the changes of state feels like something that's really Yeah. That happens a lot. <laugh> in
Speaker 4 00:20:38 Yeah. It's, I guess it's kind of like that cuz I mean, one of the primary ingredients and one of the most essential ones in biomaterials are making, um, like biomaterials is water mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and you wait for that water to evaporate mm-hmm. <affirmative> and allow it to, well you first allow it to kind of, um, be the, be the substance in which everything else dissolves. Mm-hmm. And then, um, be it like the plant or organic matter in there and that you're trying to, um, make into a plastic or a ceramic or a glass or whatever, but you need water mm-hmm. <affirmative> for it to sort of, um, come together mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, into like a homogeneous state and then the water, and then once you like pour it, um, into a mold and then you just wait for that sheet or, um, object to dry and evaporate itself out so that you're left with, um, whether like a flexible or more rigid material depending on like the mm-hmm. <affirmative>,
Speaker 4 00:21:38 The ratio of materials that also go into it mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, but I think it's, it's, uh, it's definitely like a, like a component that acts as like a binder or like a connector mm-hmm. <affirmative> with all the other, other mother ones. And I think for me, um, for this project anyway, it was, um, less about like a focus of, um, I guess the individual components of the biomaterials, but like the resulting biomaterial itself mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so for like example, like I made, um, like a, like a bioplastic that is somewhat sort of flexible, kind of like you would think like a linoleum or a vinyl mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, a sheet. Um, but it has a level of like rigidity or like a, uh, rigidity or I guess like a, like a structure to it mm-hmm. So that it can kind of hold itself up. And then, um, the idea is that then these materials will then be, um, cut and then reshaped and fashioned into, um, armature mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
Speaker 4 00:22:49 And so that's sort of the project. What I'm doing here is, um, taking it as a, as a regenerative, but also as you say, like a evolving, uh, material that can change throughout the course of its lifespan, whether by, um, hardening or changing its coloration or even, even like growing like microorganisms itself, um, on its surface. And those will, um mm-hmm. <affirmative> make up the armatures that, um, that, uh, will be the sculptures. So I'm, I'm making like bio armour that people can especially, um, poc, um, individuals can, uh, inhabit as a way of, um, creating resiliency and self-care mm-hmm. <affirmative> and self-healing and to push back against what armor, uh, has historically done, which is, uh, shield, um mm-hmm. <affirmative> those in power and inflict, uh, violence upon those who don't have it mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and so the, this, like all this, all this came about because of a, a terminology in the, um, police and military ballistic armor, uh, plates that they use, um, which are called trauma plates. And I found that to be an ironic terminology because of the trauma that's inflicted upon, um, mostly marginalized and underrepresented people by the police and the military. Um, and so I wanted to create a speculative armature that would allow us, um, as individuals, but as collectives, as well as collectives to transform, um, gestures of violence or, um, trauma into, uh, gestures of healing and resiliency. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah.
Speaker 5 00:24:56 Nice. Yeah, it was, I mean, I have so many questions like, what's plastic <laugh>?
Speaker 4 00:25:02 What is plastic?
Speaker 5 00:25:03 Yeah. Like what makes something plastic? Yeah. You know, like such a kind of funny thing that even when you're kind of, I don't know, like you're not making plastic, but it's like still has that anyway, but that's like, you can answer that's like just over there. But I was like, actually, like this morning I was thinking about your work and this idea of like, the armor as something that, um, I guess like I was like thinking about the armor as something that surrounds, um, a body or like that it, uh, yeah. And that, uh, yeah. Surrounds it and kind of like holds it as well. And I was thinking about the way that I think in your work, I guess there's like also this way that like the material or like that the material maybe kind of embodies a body, but also like vice versa.
Speaker 5 00:26:13 The, the way like a body embodies a material, just like thinking about the way that you're, uh, just like, you know, like these like regenerative, um, points, moments of contact between like a material and like a person's skin. And so I was like thinking about, I guess how like there's the singular, there's like the body that who's, that's like touching these different materials. But then I was like also thinking about the way that like once, and cuz I think you kind of speak about it in a way where it's like almost, it's like, well the whole, it's like, I think, and I think this is like a, it's speculative, but it feels like you are kind of pointing to this moment where like those materials, like fuses or like the body and like these like biomaterials kind of fuses or like becomes integrated in a way I think, or like, I, at least that's like what I understood when you were talking about kind of like these, uh, moments in like speculative fiction.
Speaker 5 00:27:23 Um, and so, and so, um, this, yeah, like this idea of like the body, the body kind of, I guess kind of expanding or like blurring the like boundaries of like where the body is and like, and how it relates to like, all these different materials. To me, like, I guess I was thinking about this word armor and like, the other word that I kept thinking about was like the surround or like the way it surrounds you, but it's also like the way that you, you are kind of, uh, like, it's like your surroundings too, because like you're using these like, materials from around us to like make, um, an armor, you know? And so it's almost like as a, and then like the way that you're thinking about it too feels like we're reciprocal so it like goes back. So there's like this idea of like, you're surroundings are kind of continuously, I don't know, like it feels like your surroundings like fall away and then surround, come to surround you again mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, um, and in that sense the body also becomes like, I don't know, like it diffuses into like the, I don't like the body of like water or like, just like, it's like a bigger body, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. I dunno.
Speaker 4 00:28:54 <laugh> Yeah, I mean, I really like the way that you, um, the way you said that because it, I do feel as though I'm always sort of, um, the, the thing that's exciting for me is that these materials are, um, they're, they can like go back into the earth mm-hmm. <affirmative> after they're completed. And so there is like a, a very much a, like a, a connection with our own bodies, which are also very much organic and very much, um, timely <laugh>. And, um, you know, we will also go back into, um, the earth after, uh, some time. And so when I am thinking about these structures, um, or these armatures, I, I, I do often kind of, um, wonder about whether they are like, what, what's actually holding what up mm-hmm. <affirmative> like is it us that's holding these armors up to our own bodies and like creating a f like a scaffolding for them or are they themselves the scaffolding for our own, um, for our own like, um, beings mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
Speaker 4 00:30:09 And I think this, like, this interplay between kind of, um, it becoming like an extension of, but also an out output of like our, um, material and kind of like psychic processes creates like this, um, really interesting symbiosis for me. And I think that, uh, symbiosis is something that's, um, that I really am kind of getting at the heart of beyond, like in this project, but also beyond it mm-hmm. <affirmative> and which is like kind of trying to understand, we're trying to, trying to kind of explore, I suppose the, the potential and the, the sort of like the wondrous potential of, um, an alternative imagining for what we can be mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And that really goes into like futurism, um, particularly Bipo futurism and, um, and how it creates this really, um, this really generative and also generous, uh, space for not knowing and the, and not being sort of like the purveyor of knowledge mm-hmm. <affirmative>,
Speaker 4 00:31:31 But rather just kind of a witness, witness to sculptural or that, or material change, witness to, um, like gestures that are maybe ephemeral and, um, kind of, um, almost undocumented when they are activated when these armor are activated. And then just like a witness to how these, this like connection between these materials and our own selves or between, um, even the, the ideology of these materials, which is just like the, the notion of like, um, multiple living things together, um, creates like a, a like a more of a lateral, like a horizontal like, uh, state of like just of living community Yeah. And like collectivity. And I think that that's something that's really interesting to me as somebody who is, um, like deeply adverse to like top down hierarchies mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, um, uh, just this idea that, um, through, uh, through acknowledging the, the, the multitude in this nature of like what we are made of already.
Speaker 4 00:32:51 Like we are already like, so like our bodies are so suffused with bacteria and fungus and microorganisms and water <laugh> and all of these things. We are by no means just like what, I mean the, the question of like, what is it to be human and what is it to be me mm-hmm. Is also like, uh, a question that seems to, um, like require us to examine what it is that makes us up cellularly and anatomically. And I think when we explore like even the surfaces of our skin, we realize that we are like multitudes mm-hmm. <affirmative> and the fact that these, um, biomaterials are kind of enacting, uh, change through touching our bodies and like connecting with us, but also that somehow that they al so these microorganisms would be affected by the gestures we make mm-hmm. <affirmative> or the affects that we produce. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> is also really interesting. It's kind of like when people say, you know, if you yell at a plant, it'll die mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And if you give it love, it'll, it'll thrive. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, I think that there is something really, um, symbiotic about that and, and really exciting about that. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> potential.
Speaker 4 00:34:11 Yeah.
Speaker 5 00:34:12 Nice. Yeah. I, I actually was thinking too, like about Yeah, I thought a lot about you today <laugh>. I was like thinking about the Yeah, like kind of the affect or like the way that your work is kind of meant to, um, I guess produce a certain kind of, or like the, I don't know, like in this, in how, I imagine when the person's like wearing this like, I don't know, face mask with like uhms or I think that's what
Speaker 4 00:34:47 Yeah. In camile
Speaker 5 00:34:48 Yeah. In camo. Yeah. This like camile face mask. Like, I feel like there's like a sense of like, uh, yeah, like, I guess an affect that is, that gets produced from like those moments of like, you know, touch, but also like the actual like ling properties of those materials. Um, and yeah, I guess I was like thinking about like this kind of, uh, the haptic Mm. And the effectual mm-hmm. <affirmative> and like how, and like, I mean, I think it like how yeah. The, the haptic and uh, the haptic and factual like information that is generated, but like in these kinds of, uh, in, in the materials that you work with, they're so like, you know, tactile and then also like, there's like all these properties that you're working with. Like, I guess I was wondering about like how that might affect the form that you are making.
Speaker 4 00:35:54 Hmm. Yeah. I mean, I, I think I've, um, I, I think I've been so preoccupied with, um, sculptures like, um, like the formal nature of sculpture mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, cuz that's what kind of I, and like, whether it's in the form of installation or video or all of these things, there's like a, a sculptural, um, like the visual is so sculptural and, uh, with this project and then with my continued research into these sort of ideas, I started to lean sort of like kind of, um, expand from that and almost lean like in a different direction, which is what is it to be like, um, fully sensorial mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, um, how does the, like even questions of like, what is the old factory connection between our, like, uh, like our sense of wellbeing when we're, when we're inhabiting these forms and these bio armors, if it smells like camomile <laugh> mm-hmm. <affirmative>
Speaker 4 00:37:12 Versus if it smells like, I don't know, like, I don't know, vinegar or alcohol or starch or all number of other things. And so there's, there's that, and then there's the, the, the textural and the, and the, the way that it feels like the coolness of the, of the gelatin or the agar on your skin. Kind of like, imagine yourself like with like this really nice thick sort of, uh, cold face mask, uhhuh <affirmative>. Yeah. Um, and like facial treatment <laugh>. Um, and then you just, you can just feel this like, um, there, there is a, there's such a, a form of like, of release and and relaxation. And that goes, I think beyond just like the physical, because the physical is so tied to the emotional and the affective. Right. And so when we feel very cold, it's not just a bodily cold, it's our entire emotional psychic being that's just completely kind of shutting down and, and just focused on, on like the, the rigidity of the cold.
Speaker 4 00:38:15 And I think it's the same when we get like a really nice massage or we, like somebody touches us in like a, like with affection where there is a, there is such a, a powerful like energy that diffuses from that that I think can't be discounted when, when you think about how sculpture works on the body or how art, visual art works on the body in, in so many different ways. And so if we want to explore the full scope of it, then we have to also explore the full scope of what, what our senses can do and what, what our senses also can't perceive. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, which is also maybe a more subconscious layering that happens, um, on like a more, on, on a more, uh, like subtle level maybe. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 5 00:39:03 <affirmative>.
Speaker 4 00:39:03 Yeah. Yeah. And I wonder, I mean like turning maybe back to your, your work <laugh>. Sure. Um, I wonder maybe if there, there is something also in your exploration of, of these like abstractions or even just the water or the, the saturations that we, I was mentioning before. Like how does, how does the, like, cuz you, cuz you said like you mentioned that sometimes you tend towards wanting that wet effect to do certain things as it dries. And so there is like a, I think a, a touch quality or tactile quality, especially because you use paper and there's like this wrinkling rippling, um, you know, crackling component to the actual surface of your work. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I mean, how, like, I wonder what, what, what is your sort of, um, fully full embodied <laugh> experience with the work as you make it and then as you encounter it,
Speaker 5 00:40:23 Right? Yeah. I think the, the kind of the wetness thing is such a, or like, just like the, not the thing, but like the quality of wetness is such a, like, is something that I really Yeah. That's like, that I really pay attention to when I'm working. I think I find, yeah, maybe like this fleet, like the fleetingness of like, of that of wetness. Um, and like how it, I mean it how it dries basically, or how it Yeah. Eventually like will evaporate. Like I find that to be so, I don't know, I think there's like so much for me, like in that state, like, I guess like I think of it as like a, yeah. As a state like this, like being wet and I feel like I, I don't know like the way that like, um, when it's wet it feels like it's, yeah, I guess it's like, feels like it's suspended in water or like, it's like kind of Yeah.
Speaker 5 00:41:43 It's sat saturated so there's, yeah. It feels like it almost, it feels like speculative Hmm. Or something. Or like, there's like this idea of like, you know, where that it's yet it's not dry yet, so it's like kind of continues to change and I think that's something that I'm really Yeah. Yeah. That's something that I'm like kind of, um, interested in working with and like how, just like what kinds of things are revealed? Like once that wet quality, um, evaporates? Uh, yeah and I guess like in rela I mean it's so like yeah. In relation to like that kind of tactility, like, I think there's like a fragility mm-hmm. <affirmative> to like the materials I work with when they're, especially when they're wet and, but at the same time, I don't know, I try to like not be, I don't know, I think I try to like, not to be like too fragile about it. Hmm. Even, but cuz I think I actually, I think like something happens when like the paper that I work with gets what it feels like it becomes some, it changes. Like, or like, maybe it, like reorients, I, I'm, this is all like speculation but maybe like the flowers are like reorienting or something cuz it, cuz after it dries it feels changed. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um,
Speaker 4 00:43:24 And does it feel like that every, for every iteration of drying?
Speaker 5 00:43:28 Mm.
Speaker 4 00:43:29 Like every subsequent iteration?
Speaker 5 00:43:31 Yeah. Like, or like, there's also like paint gets belt up mm-hmm. <affirmative> and so, um, like it, yeah. Like sometimes it feels like it's like becomes coated in something. I don't know. I'm like really interested in this thing too. Like how I like also like sometimes paint with just water and no pigment and like how water actually like leaves a mark or like what I think there's like also it's like a point in the material I think where like, just like the more you kind of continues to work on it, like when it water doesn't always dry, like clear like it dr sometimes it dries like with like a stain mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but it was just water. Right. You know, I'm like, and I'm like really interested in, in that cuz it feels like, yeah, this, it feels like this material, like the material of water, it's like it's doing something even though we can't, I can't you can't really, I mean, I can see it actually. Yeah. But like, we don't usually perceive it. Right.
Speaker 4 00:44:43 You know, and there's different, I guess it would be different if you were maybe like, get water from different sources, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> because the water itself contains hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and thousands of different microorganisms of bacteria and all these things. And so like of course it would leave a stain, but then also it's that staining is, uh, conducive of all the living organisms that are now inhabiting. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> your, your paper mm-hmm. <affirmative> here and kind of interacting with your painting and paint. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And how it, uh, that's also I think really, um, interesting cuz then you start thinking about like the Yeah. In, in some other, in like another way, like a symbiosis between like how the water determines like where like how the pigments show up mm-hmm. <affirmative> also maybe it's determined by the hardness of your water mm-hmm. <affirmative> or by the, the, by the contents of your water.
Speaker 5 00:45:44 Yeah. And
Speaker 4 00:45:45 Then
Speaker 5 00:45:46 The hard uhhuh. <affirmative>.
Speaker 4 00:45:47 Yeah.
Speaker 5 00:45:48 Yeah. I really like, yeah. I like, I, I, yeah. I think all the water that comes out of your faucet is like the most immediate water. And so I think, I don't know, I'm almost, I'm kind of like interested in this like, uh,
Speaker 4 00:46:09 But that's also connected to like the source, right? Yes. Like the pipes and Yeah.
Speaker 5 00:46:13 Yeah. But like the thing that's coming out of the Yeah. But it, but that's like it comes from Yeah. Yeah. It's the water of like where you are. It's like the thing that, yeah. So I'm kind of,
Speaker 4 00:46:24 Um, and so it's also like a marker in a way, like an invisible marker of your domestic mm-hmm. <affirmative> or like in like the architecture of that space mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right? Like the water that you use, maybe even in Centrum <laugh> Yes. In their old studio building. Uhhuh, <affirmative> might be have like a different content than the water that you get, um, back in Vancouver. Yeah. Maybe. Um
Speaker 5 00:46:47 Mm-hmm.
Speaker 4 00:46:48 <affirmative>. So then starts I guess pointing at lineage too in a way. Mm.
Speaker 5 00:46:53 Yeah. I, I like, I like that idea of like water touching architecture or like Yeah. That, because I think to me like that's like kind of, I think that's closer to like how I approach it is like how water kind of interacts with Yeah. Like these structures that we find ourselves mm-hmm.
Speaker 4 00:47:18 <affirmative>
Speaker 5 00:47:19 In or like, I think that's like I'm, I resonate with that more than like, kind of, I don't know. I mean like, I love like the ocean, but I think that's almost like too much to grass mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but like the water that kind of is like in the types of our houses Yeah. Feel like, yeah. I don't know. I feel like there's also something to it that we don't really think about that mm-hmm. <affirmative> or like that that's like our kind of a form of water that we just like, you know, kind of take for granted too.
Speaker 4 00:48:02 Yeah. It's, uh, it's really makes me think of, uh, sort of your interest in, in diaspora too, and how like the water that you use, maybe like even in your parents' house mm-hmm. <affirmative> in Canada is different and how it like speaks to the, the domestic space there and the the Yeah. And how it also, like you said, and um, when you, you're recording Bruce Lee <laugh>, uh, like yeah, it takes the shape of that, those pipes and it takes the shape of the space, but it also like, maybe it like takes the like chemical components of it are now like inside you too because you've consumed that water mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so there is like a, um, like a mm-hmm. <affirmative> irreversible tether now to like this, to the spaces that you've inhabited and that your work has inhabited.
Speaker 5 00:49:06 Yeah. I like that. Yeah. I like that. Yeah. That, that kind of water that you can consume. Yeah. Yeah. It kind of, yeah, I guess that like, I feel like there's, yeah, that kind of is reminding me of like the way that like the, um, reciprocity or like this, the reciprocity of like with, uh, the reciprocal qualities of like the materials that you work with or just like the way that it like is something that can affect you, but you can also like affect it. Um, yeah.
Speaker 4 00:49:45 Yeah. I think reciprocal is a good word for, for both our works or the way that we explore, um, our, our ancestry and our histories and her materials. I think there is a, and I think that the, I think I really, what I really resonated with when I was at your, in your studio was that there was, um, there was like a level, I think you were mentioning it too before, like you, you kind of, you're feeling in the dark mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and I really appreciate that, um, uh, kind of ambivalence in this like, uh, in a, in a, in an openness, um, to not knowing mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but also not like just going and turning on the lights, you know, if we were to play into that metaphor or like, it, it's, it's not like a, a complete, like immediate need to know or to under I see.
Speaker 4 00:50:44 Need to see completely mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but an exploration and a, um, one that's, uh, I think patient enough that like, you'd allow for that space to just emerge mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and I think that there's something in there that I really, um, identify with when it comes to, uh, working with these materials or any other materials that I work with. It's always just like, let's just see what happens. <laugh>. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Let's just see what it will, it will turn out to be. Yeah. And you're almost kind of letting the material guide you in this, um, reciprocal relationship. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah.
Speaker 5 00:51:29 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah. There's, I actually was thinking about the process of you making, I mean, I think when I was at your studio the other day, I was so like, when as soon as you like framed it as cooking, it took such a turn or like, I think it, like it, I really, it like spoke to me so much when you were like, oh, it's, it is just like cooking, you know, <laugh>. Um, and how Yeah. Like how just, yeah, I guess like, I, to me like cooking is such a responsive like process. You're just like, you know, kind of like looking and seeing what happens and tasting as you go and like kind of making adjustments based on like what you're sensing mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, I feel like yeah, like sensing. Is that the kind of thing that you're describing earlier? Like, of like, um, not turning on the lights right away, but like, instead paying attention to like what you're sensing. Um, but cooking. Do I have a question about cooking? <laugh>?
Speaker 4 00:52:44 I mean, I definitely think it's a <laugh>, it's like a thing I think for especially, I don't know. I mean, I grew up, uh, with no, with my mom teaching me how to cook mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, and she learned from her mom and she taught me the same way she learned, which was, there's no recipe actually written down and everything is word of mouth. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and there's no measurements. And it's really literally just like put a dash, a pinch, like a handful maybe that's as close as it gets like approximation mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But really it's just like you taste it, you see it, it, you check it mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you do it. And so it's like that kind of mentality I think in, in cooking, um, kind of suffuses into I think, um, art making. Mm-hmm. In the sense that it's just always like, you know, you just try it, you see it, you and experiment.
Speaker 4 00:53:44 Yeah. No, not, not everyone's gonna like your food, but mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you give it a shot. Um, yeah. But it's also an act of, um, I always felt that, uh, cooking was like an act of like, um, nourishing so many different parts of like, not only like the individual, but also the collective mm-hmm. <affirmative> and how it's, it's like a, it's like the one, uh, for me was like the one thing that like brought like our family together mm-hmm. <affirmative> in a specific time. It, it kind of, um, became this like the dining room, like the dining table, which was on the floor for us for a long time. And we like ate on the floor and we sat on the floor and we had like a table and it was just always this like, um, like this moment to, to kind of discuss or share or even just, even just like eat in silence but eat together. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I think there was like a nourishing quality to that that, that I'm always sort of, um, I guess looking for in making work, whether it's something that like feeds back into myself, but also like feeds outwardly mm-hmm. <affirmative> in some way. Um, and maybe that's again, like, maybe that is like the symbiotic, you know, um, balanced reciprocal nature of what we're both looking for.
Speaker 5 00:55:12 Yeah. Yeah. I think I, what I was kind of, yeah, like to me like cooking or like, just like having that uh, kind of framework around it implied so much like lineage mm-hmm. <affirmative> and also like, to me like a kind of futurism or like, cuz I think, yeah, I guess like I was like kind of even, yeah. You know, because like recipes are like, meant are like this thing that's like meant to be, or like they are this thing that is passed down and changes, but it's also like, because it's food, it is like also what will help you like survive into, you know mm-hmm. <affirmative> the future mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so I was like thinking about, yeah, I guess like res like the idea of like the recipe as a kind of, I guess yeah. Like futurism and like also like relationally or like the way that recipes are also relational and um, I mean like, I think yeah, maybe this is like kind of like veering a bit far from like the work, but I was like wondering about like what you thought about like, the form of the recipe or like a, about a recipe as a form or something.
Speaker 4 00:56:40 Yeah. Yeah. I really like that, uh, that take. I, I think it's, um, because it, like the, the way that the biomaterials are made in particular for this project, it becomes like this, um, this cookbook almost. Yeah. Like a future future cookbook or futurism cookbook for, um, and the cookbook in, in like doesn't have to always mean that it's, you know, consumable by human mm-hmm. <affirmative> mouths
Speaker 5 00:57:17 <laugh>. Yeah. Like cook cooking for other Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 4 00:57:20 Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's like cooking for, I don't know, like cooking for the, like for an idea Uhhuh <affirmative> or for like a, a proposal for the future. Mm.
Speaker 5 00:57:31 It's like or for your surrounding.
Speaker 4 00:57:33 Yeah. And so I think that those recipe, like a recipe is really just like a, a like a set of like a list of lists of items Right. Or, um, ideas or even just like subjects that can be put together and essentially, um, add up to something that, that it wasn't before on its own singularity. And so I think that that like, so it like in the most like traditional form, you think of like, okay, it put, you know, flour, salt water in yeast and they get bread. Um, all those things combined, um, gives me, um, something that was different from what it was on their own. Um, but in the other sense, you can kind of extrapolate from that and maybe, and if you were thinking about like futurism and the possibilities of how we can imagine a more equitable, ecologically racially, socially equitable future for ourselves, what components are required or should maybe come together to result in those possibilities. And this is just one sort of proposal. This, this body of work is like one recipe mm-hmm. <affirmative> for this possibility of like, coalescing into this future bread. <laugh> <laugh> Future Loaf <laugh>. Nice. Yeah. Or maybe like, I don't know if you've seen the movie, um, uh, everything all at once. Yeah, yeah. Um, it's like the, it's like the Everything Bagel.
Speaker 5 00:59:14 Mm-hmm.
Speaker 4 00:59:15 <affirmative> of the Future
Speaker 5 00:59:16 <laugh>, but in that movie the Everything Bagel is like
Speaker 4 00:59:20 <laugh>. Yeah. It's like this ominous, like hole. But it's also, I think it was also like this beautiful proposal of, um, you know, this, uh, I mean it was this like delicious looking mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, potential that held everything mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, that it was impossible to encompass all things, but it it does and mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, yeah. And the fact that it's a bagel is just like the best thing mm-hmm. <affirmative> in the world. <laugh>. And I was like, of course if the universe was anything, it'd be a bagel. Right.
Speaker 5 00:59:58 That, that makes me think about this kind of, uh, yeah. I guess like, it makes me think about this, uh, kind of hybrid that like, uh, incorporates everything.
Speaker 4 01:00:15 Yeah. Yeah. And, and the fact that it's, um, I dunno, I, I think that the, the fact that it's has this, uh, quality to kind of, uh, regenerate is also a quality that can nourish. It's a quality that can go back into these ideas of like healing and restoration and something that you and your work. I think also kind of, um, were, we were touching on, um, in your studio visit about like repair mm-hmm. <affirmative> and maybe there is like, um, a reparative quality to proposing these, these types of works that I think are, um, maybe that's where kind of our, our works, despite their like very disparate maybe mediums like overlap, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I don't know if you wanted to talk a little bit more about like the, um, the integration of your like, um, uh, fabrics mm-hmm. <affirmative> or like the reparative qualities that you're exploring.
Speaker 5 01:01:17 Yeah. Yeah. Um, I guess I'm like, I brought a bunch of my grandmother's patchworks here with me. Um, I think I've been, oh, I like have a kind of intuitive like, attraction to them as like these like really beautiful, like abstract like color block kind of forms with like, you know, like really amazing like color combinations. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and patterns. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and stuff. And like, they're pretty, uh, some of them are pretty tattered because they were, she was like using them as rags or like, they were used to rags but also like made out of ra like rags. Like, they're just like made out of like a lot of like refuse mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so like one of the gestures I've been trying or like, I've just been like, you know, kind of repairing some of them because it feels like what you should do to things that are like a little bit falling apart.
Speaker 5 01:02:20 That are falling apart. So I've been experimenting with that of like, kind of, yeah. Repairing these fabrics. But I've also been like, the thing that I've been doing that I've done here actually that has been kind of new, is like, I've also been like, um, uh, painting the, like, I'm kind of taking patches or like certain patches with that has a pattern on them. I'm recreating them as paintings. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and it's been interesting cuz it makes me like, there's like this one patch in particular that to me just like, looks like the ocean. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> or like, it looks like the ocean. And then like, she like cut this like, rectangular patch and it was like, meant to be the patch for like a circular hole. And so like on one side of the patch you just see like this perfect like, circle of like, it looks like the, like the ocean glint thing.
Speaker 5 01:03:29 Hmm. So it looks like you're like looking through like a porthole mm-hmm. <affirmative> kind of thing. And when I made it, so like, I was like looking at that and then when I translated, translated it into a painting, I don't know, like it was like this, it felt like it was like act, it felt like it was like actualizing it into an ocean or something. Like it felt like that that, that there was something that was happening from that translation where like the things, I guess it was like the things that I was like projecting and like imbuing on it felt like I was actually like materializing them or something. So it felt like this, I don't know, like more than like repair it more than repairing it felt like I was, I don't know, it felt, it felt like a more, um, I guess it just like, yeah, just like, felt like really generative or something. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 4 01:04:26 <affirmative>.
Speaker 5 01:04:26 Do you to like extrapolate?
Speaker 4 01:04:28 Yeah. Did you feel like it was like a, um, that transformation of material from the fabric onto the, like, into a painting? Was it like a, did it reconstitute itself in like a different way? Like did it take on a new, like a new, like half life or like, did, did it kind of create a new like seedling of itself mm-hmm. <affirmative> or did you find that it was more like a, um, like a reference? Like a reference? Mm.
Speaker 5 01:05:00 Yeah. I think it did more than just like refer, I think it was like, yeah, I guess like, yeah, constitute this nice word. Like it felt like it like became the thing that I was it imagining it to be, you know, like instead of like me kind of just like projecting that there was like an ocean Yeah. Yeah. Onto this patch. It like be, it became an image of an ocean in my painting. But I think, I guess, I don't know, like that the way that I kind of, I guess intervene, the, the way that like, I was able to like, intervene, intervene and turn it into something I found. Yeah. It was like interesting because that's also like, so different than how I usually make paintings. You know, like, I'm not usually like, I don't usually have source material mm-hmm. <affirmative> and so yeah, it just, it felt like invigorating to kind of have something be, so, yeah.
Speaker 5 01:06:16 I think, I guess like I was also thinking about how like, clarity is, uh, clarity is, um, something that I kind of aspire to or like that in, in my work. I think that's usually like how I know something is complete is if it feels clear or like if it feels like out of this kind of, because like, I think there's so many moments before something is done where it feels like it's just chaotic and like all over the place, but there's like a moment of clarity that's so like, hard to ignore that you have to like that I, I don't know. At least for me, I like really, I'm like, okay, that's like, that's when I know something's finished. And I think that there was just, yeah. Like there was something so clear about seeing that pattern in that way when it was translated that it felt good.
Speaker 4 01:07:13 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
Speaker 5 01:07:14 Yeah.
Speaker 4 01:07:16 Yeah. I mean, I think that's, um, it's funny that you say that in a way and I, I w I guess I wonder what I wanna, I would love to hear you unpack the word like clarity just because of the way that your, your paintings have this sort of, uh, opacity to them. Mm. And this like, the depth to them that's almost, uh, like, um, because of all the layers of paint and the, and, and the, the fact that they become in some places like incredibly dark or shaded. Um, so there's like a, um, almost like a refusal to let in like light. I wonder even if you like, took it off the wall, whether it would light would even penetrate in some of these areas. And so with this opacity and this almost, um, uh, uh, denial or like a, um, uh, or withholding of opacity or, or like clarity or transparency mm-hmm. <affirmative> maybe mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Like where, like how do you see like, is clarity more like a by by clarity do you mean like the affective quality of like just knowing when something is done? Or do you like I would love to hear what you mean by <laugh> more Clarity. Clarity. Yeah.
Speaker 5 01:08:36 I think, I think, I guess like when I see, when I use that word, it's like when something, um, when something is described in a way that feels like I understand the picture <laugh> or like, it's like this quality of like, oh, that's what is happening. Oh, I see. Yeah. Here like it, I think it, I think of clarity as a kind of this like, I guess a summation or like, it feels like it's, you know, like I'm, yeah. I guess like when something is clear to me it's like I, it's when I'm understanding all of the parts and like how like all of the parts are functioning and like, yeah, sure. Like a lot of those things can be like, about lot of them are like opaque and like not transparent, but it's like also about like understanding like, you know, like why that part is not transparent and like what, I guess what you want people to see and understand also mm-hmm. <affirmative>. I think that's what clarity what, what do you think clarity
Speaker 4 01:09:51 Means? No, that's what I thought, but I, I was just trying to, cuz I, I just thought that that word was so striking to me just simply because of the quality of water. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and the quality of your like watercolors and the, the layering and like the, um, yeah. And the, the colorations that I've seen in your work. Um, I just, I, that's something about that word kind of struck me. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. <laugh> we're just realizing that we are like past Yeah. Time, I guess. Yeah.
Speaker 5 01:10:27 But, um, I don't know. Yeah. Thanks so much for, I feel like just the past Yeah. Like the, the like kind of past convers, like all the conversations we've had while wellbeing your husband. So, um, yeah, like generative for me and also like really affirming to like, hear you, uh, engage with my work and I think understand it, so. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, thank you.
Speaker 4 01:10:57 Yeah. Thank you. I thought it was, um, I mean, he's so nice to have those, um, undocumented <laugh> unrecorded sessions and the, and we were like walking on the beach or just visiting each other's studios and chatting. Um, and I, I think I'm, I'm happy that those took place Yeah. Before this recording <laugh>, even though like, maybe there are things in in there that I don't know could have been in here, but that's just for us. Yeah. It's just for us. Yeah. Which I think is also a level of, um, I guess just like non transparency in a way. Okay. That I, I like, um, just that there are some things that are more intimate and mm-hmm. <affirmative>, spontaneous and happenstance. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and those things are also precious. Yes. Too. So yeah. This was great. And we'll have more of those. Yeah. Yeah. <laugh>, so we will keep talking for sure. Yeah. Okay. Great.
Speaker 6 01:12:14 Thank you for joining us today. This podcast was recorded and edited by staff at Centrum. Music is by Tabor Dark and Cover Art is by Leon Finley, both alums of centrums Residency program. If you've enjoyed this series, please check out our archive of Artist Conversations and other podcasts available wherever you listen. Leave us a review and share with a friend that helps support and head over to centrum.org to learn about our programs, become a participant, or donate. We are grateful to have you in our creative community and look forward to bringing you more conversations from artists and creatives.
