Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:01 Welcome to this Centrum podcast. For more podcasts or to join Centrum programs, building Creativity in Community, visit us at centrum org.
Speaker 3 00:00:25 I'm Michelle Haywood, and this is On Air, a podcast focusing on conversations with artists and creatives. From Centrums residency community. I am broadcasting to you from the lands and waters of the coast, Salish people in a place known as Katai to the Qualin people, and today known as Port Towns in Washington. This podcast is focused on bringing artists together in community to explore the ways that place, process, and the personal intersect. We dive into the many ways that artists are responding to the current times affecting change and finding sustenance during health, climate, and social crisis. Join us and take an hour to be in residence and unpack your own relationships to creativity, time and place. Thank you for being here, and enjoy this episode.
Speaker 3 00:01:19 Hi, and welcome back to our Annual Residency podcast program. I'm happy to bring you another episode from our 2022 Emerging Artists and Writers Program. This is one of five conversations that highlight the thoughts and stories of 10 creative people who received stipends, housing, and studio spaces for the month of October here at Centrum. They were encouraged to take this time to rest, recover, and tend to all the things that are necessary for creative processes to take place. As you may already know, we ask the residents to pair up among themselves and interview each other. And this format seeks to capture the essence of what happens during a residency where an individuals have lots of solo time, but also chances to connect with each other and share surprising details about their lives and pursuits unfettered by a formal interviewer or agenda. In today's session, Ari Makhad and Frank Abe discuss the different ways that their family histories play significantly into the themes and approaches of their work in screenwriting poetry, and the multiple disciplines they've engaged with over their careers. They share the ways the residency has held revelations related to their writing processes and how they've each uniquely approached the time. These two are amazing storytellers and will have you running to chase down their work at the end of the episode. Enjoy.
Speaker 6 00:02:48 My name is Ari Mock Dad. I am a poet, writer, choreographer, dancer, and educator, and I'm really excited to be here.
Speaker 7 00:02:57 And I'm Frank Abe. I'm from Seattle. I'm a former, uh, journalist, communications director, and now emerging into, uh, the field of more creative writing. So, which is why I'm glad I'm here for this residency because it gives me a chance to, uh, expand into this new, new field for me.
Speaker 6 00:03:19 So one of the things, uh, we decided we were gonna talk about was about our process and how our time here has been at Centrum. Do you wanna tell me a little more about your process?
Speaker 7 00:03:32 The process? Well, first of all, it's, it's great to be here at Port Townsend, uh, uh, with the, the water and the quiet and the, the company of the people that are in our cohort is we've had some good opportunities to, uh, mingle with the visual artists. You know, you and I are writers, but we had to get the visual of the vi visual artists as well. Um, so that's been, uh, been fun. Um, my, my, I I'm, I'm working on adapting a novel for the stage. And so my process is at present mechanical, because what I'm starting with is just, it is, uh, retyping the dialogue from the novel onto the page. Uh, as a very first step, this is a novel that I've, I've loved for, for 30, 40 years. So it's, it, I know it inside out. And, but doing the mechanical process of like, for putting post notes on the wall for, for all, you know, lining up the scenes up.
Speaker 7 00:04:30 And, but then also, uh, the next step of retyping the dialogue, uh, has helped me to understand the way the characters talk and the, um, gaps, uh, the places where the dialogue is just awful. And, and Turgid and I, I, I make notes to myself, you know, insert speech here, you know, use this opportunity to expand on an idea or introduce a new idea that I, I want to put in that I know the, that the author didn't know about at the time he wrote the novel. Uh, uh, um, so that, that's my process, uh, to start with. And we're on day, what, 17, 18, day 17 of our, of our residency. 17, 18. Yeah. 18th. And, um, uh, my, my goal was to get, you know, what, what you and I would call a bad first draft, or as was it, Anne Lamont said
Speaker 6 00:05:24 It was Anne Lamont shitty first
Speaker 7 00:05:25 Draft. Oh, you said it. Okay. Not me. <laugh>. I said it. It's okay. No, thank you, <laugh>. Um, you know, uh, you know, not, not trying to be the problem, Ari was, you know, I, I wanna be too fine, too perfect, too respectful of the material, you know, and I, I didn't, I, I've had this for a year. I've been sitting with it for a year, and I didn't, the material was so sacred to me that I didn't even dare to put, uh, a word down on paper, on, on, on, on the computer until, um, I got here because it was just too ho holy right. To, to, uh, and so fi I saw finally in my process, I've broken through that barrier finally getting, uh, the dialogue down and I know where, um, it needs to get fixed. And, uh, and so hopefully I will still emerge with a, with a shitty first draft, and I can show it to the people back in Seattle that I hope to have this, have them produce it later. Yeah. Wow. Yeah.
Speaker 6 00:06:23 So you really didn't even start until you
Speaker 7 00:06:25 Got No, no. This, this month is, is been set aside in my mind as, um, the, the moment for the magic to have <laugh> fingers crossed it Well, the
Speaker 6 00:06:36 Floodgates to open.
Speaker 7 00:06:36 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so far it is. I mean, I get like a scene done a day as like my target. Wow. Uh, well, I, I'm, again, I'm just retyping what, what's in the No,
Speaker 6 00:06:47 But that's still a lot of progress. The scene a day. Yeah.
Speaker 7 00:06:49 Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 6 00:06:49 I think that's, that's a really admirable goal Yeah. To set for yourself
Speaker 7 00:06:53 And, and, and, and understanding, you know, where it's going and what needs to be filled in and, uh, research you need to do to also figure out. Um, but I hear you talking on the phone a lot through the, we, we we're next, we have apartments next door.
Speaker 6 00:07:09 Yeah. So we're right next door to
Speaker 7 00:07:10 Each other. Yeah. Yeah. And, and so we can hear each other's, you know, footsteps and, uh, and, and conversations. And, and I wanna know about your process, cuz you're a poet. And, uh, I was, I, I asked for you some of your work last night, and I was really interested in how, you know, a lot of your poems were, uh, had a lot of social justice content. I mean, they weren't just artsy, far artsy poems. They, they were really heavy, heavy stuff about, uh, and I'll say it, the also, uh, the Israeli occupation of Lebanon. Am I right?
Speaker 6 00:07:42 Well, there's a lot of that with my family's history. You know, so we're, we're Lebanese. My, uh, father's family immigrated to the United States, um, in 19 78, 79, during the Lebanese Civil War. So there was a major conflict during that time, um, between a lot of different things between the Palestinians, between the Israelis, between the Lebanon, between Lebanese themselves, against each other. Um, and it wasn't really a safe time. So they came here to America to kind of create a new, a new life that they didn't have to worry about car bombs. My dad was almost killed in an explosion. Um, and it's funny because I'm uncovering these stories in a way that I never thought I would, I didn't grow up with them. Nobody wants to talk about them. So me finding about my dad in this mini Cooper almost being killed, I didn't know until maybe a few years ago when my partner bought a Mini Cooper and my dad wouldn't get in the car.
Speaker 6 00:08:40 And I'm like, what the hell is wrong with him? Why wouldn't he get in the car? But then I realized that there is so much memory that I don't even know that he won't necessarily tell me. And it's not like we like to tell these war stories of sadness around the dinner table, um, without bringing in deep sadness. So I've been uncovering a lot of these stories and also doing research on what others o other families were going through in the region that my family was from. So a lot of my poems do engage that, but there's also a lot of the natural world, and there's also humor. So, I'm sorry I didn't send you more poems. I only sent you a few, um, but you probably hear me talking on the phone all the time because I think poets are also storytellers. And so I have a lot of wonderful support in my community and me being, um, on the opposite side of the country from where I'm from, which I'm from Michigan, so being here in Washington is quite a distance away from everyone. Um, so you gotta check in, you know how that goes.
Speaker 7 00:09:35 Yeah, yeah. The, um, the, the poems are, I mean, they certainly recall the one you sent me was, was about, um, mentioned a lot of conflict and a lot of memory of that. Uh, but you, you, you called these old poems, <laugh> and, and, and you, and you told me they, that they weren't representative of where you're at right now. So, is there a process that you're moving from one sensibility to another?
Speaker 6 00:10:02 Well, so I've, I've moved away from some of the heritage rich poems, and part of the process for me here at Centrum is that we, we recently suffered, um, a death in our family of a dearly beloved. And, um, so I've been working on gy, which is very difficult, I'm finding to work through, because you're still unpacking all of the emotional sadness and grief and trauma of losing somebody, but then also trying to represent them in like, the most realistic way full of light and love, you know? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So you go for walks, you go for lots of walks. Here at Centrum, we've been lucky that there's been sun, although hazy from the fires, which reminds you that we're in, uh, a very fleeting time, you know? So the reality is, it's been really an interesting process to enjoy being on the ocean and in the sun, but also seeing all this haze, it's like you never really forget.
Speaker 6 00:11:03 Uh, you're really grounded in, um, the bigger picture and some of the bigger work that needs to be done. So not just with gy, but a lot of the work is also engaging with, um, the anthropo scene. I mean, it's, it's very obvious that we're moving into a time where climate change is impacting so much. Um, we're losing species, we're seeing animals more stressed out than ever. And even going for a hike here in the woods, which was so magical and feels like a unicorn, a ferry should be walking out of this forest. It's so gorgeous. You can't deny that there's smoke everywhere. And so now what used to feel like a safe space and a sacred in the woods, and that kind of calm doesn't even feel like that anymore. So a lot of, as heavy as that sounds, I've been trying to catalog all these little pieces that from my walks, from my phone calls, which again, I'm sorry Frank, for walking around and talking so much in the apartment next door. It doesn't
Speaker 7 00:11:59 Bother you. It doesn't bother you a bit, by the way
Speaker 6 00:12:00 I told you that. No, I know. But I just like, thank you for your patience with that <laugh>. But I think it's important to kind of keep those little moments cataloged in my brain. Cuz then as I'm working through poems, I also go to the dance studio and I feel, what is, what am I feeling in my body? And so how can I write those words down? And I often will scatter them literally three by five index cards all over the floor and, um, collect them and arrange them into poems. And the poem keeps changing and shifting until I find the right order.
Speaker 7 00:12:32 Incredible
Speaker 6 00:12:34 <laugh>. So that's been the process. It's really messy. And I was not kidding when I say I'm literally rolling around on the floor, but sometimes you have to like, actually dig in and find, find where that is resonating, whereas it's sitting. Um, and I've been exploring the back space on the floor and upright, you know, um, and just seeing like, what does that feel like? That weightlessness the movement. So
Speaker 7 00:12:56 Yeah. But the connection between movement and language, I find very interesting that
Speaker 6 00:13:00 Yeah. Embodiment.
Speaker 7 00:13:02 Oh, <laugh>. Yeah. <laugh>. Yeah. I, I, I wonder just to, just for people to get a, a tone, you know, if I, I, I'd love to hear you read something. Yeah.
Speaker 6 00:13:11 Um, okay. I have, I have one with me. It is one that's already published, but I think it's worthwhile because it's been significantly revised. Um, and I guess part of the work that I've been doing is working on a manuscript. I feel like that's like the next step you have. We're gonna get to you in a second here. But Frank, you are incredibly accomplished, and you have many books, and I can't wait. You're next. Um, so this one is called, after the Israeli army burned our Land. We remember the olives in the rose scented garments of my Arabic grandmother is the test of 10,000 sons. The night Lebanese people were gone down by the fountain was the moment she knew it was no longer safe. My father, his face guard won't tell me the stories of the bodies, the bloody fountain, his escape cloaked in darkness from Nek to Jordan, smuggled, don't look into the faces at checkpoints. Instead, my father would rather tell me stories of Maha, of the lingering sweetness of kta on aid, or how a lemon skin feels in your hand when it's freshly pulled, peeled, and salted before being eaten from my tata's garden. Now, when I see my grandmother, she asks if I need Zaha or olives, the special bright green ones brought in barrels from Lebanon, hand smashed and brid with red peppers, so that I never forget where I come from.
Speaker 6 00:14:45 So that one's one of the ones that, like you're saying, and deals with the conflict and kind of, of the land that my father came from. Um, and the sad thing about it is I still haven't been able to get back to Lebanon to see it, because there's just been so much conflict. And as you know, there was that giant explosion in the Port of Beirut. Oh, yeah. There's been a lot of political unrest. And even though I have family there that I would love to go see, it's just been not exactly the safest place for a young woman to be no traveling.
Speaker 7 00:15:16 Well, those are powerful, you know, themes that you're working with, uh, as well as the, you called it legacy or, uh, family, family legacy stuff.
Speaker 6 00:15:25 Legacy, yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 7 00:15:26 Yeah. And so when you mentioned that to me, that you were, you were moving away from that a little bit and into, into what
Speaker 6 00:15:34 Well, uh, into the, some of the allergy stuff. Of course. Yeah. That's, and then into some of the, the more natural poems and just exploring emotional range. I think you can get really caught in, uh, the spiral of uncovering all of these family stories. And sometimes maybe you're not always ready to see what the history books have to say with everything. It's a, I mean, you, you also know it's difficult reading some of the stories of the struggles of the people that came before us and realizing that the stories were maybe not told correctly. Um, and that the history books from the perspective of an American news, you know, watching the conflict in the Middle East, it villainize sometimes people that are just trying to defend their own home. I mean, look at what's going on in Palestine. Th those people have lived there and they're being forcibly removed from their homes. So sometimes it's not always accurately reported. And that's really difficult to, to see how the history books are not collecting the crack stories from the right perspective.
Speaker 7 00:16:36 Oh, no. I mean, it's terrible. The, the framing of, uh, ju just the Israeli Palestinian, uh, conflict, uh, is, um, often one-sided.
Speaker 6 00:16:46 Yeah. And then you, I mean, you see what's going on in Iran for, for women right now, and across the Middle East, we're seeing so much violence that, and that's also, it's heartbreaking to see how much, um, women are oppressed and how easy it is for them to, to be in murder and then change the narrative. Oh, she had a heart attack. But when you look at the images, you know, it wasn't a heart attack. Yeah. So you, you realize that these stories are not always accurate, and it's a lot of uncovering. But please, um, I want you to tell me about the process of uncovering stories when you realized cuz a lot of your work deals with similar stuff.
Speaker 7 00:17:22 I was about to say, yes. I mean, we, we, we both share the, the, the need to reframe, uh, uh, common narratives. And that's our job as, as writers, is to, um, you know, shine a light mm-hmm. <affirmative> onto, um, into some truths. So, in, in, in my case, you know, uh, I'm Japanese American, my, and you mentioned your father. My father, uh, immigrated here in 1937. Uh, so he, uh, I'm a cross, second generation, third generation, uh, Japanese American. And, um, the, the common i i notion of our response to the wartime incarceration of Japanese Americans, which is my, my, my niche, my, my <laugh>, my, um, area, uh, uh, the common notion that I respond to this massive injustice, uh, and violation of, of constitutional civil rights was, uh, could be summarized in one of two Japanese terms. Uh, she cut thek, which was Japanese for it, can't be helped.
Speaker 7 00:18:28 Uh, which I took to be, you know, a more passive resignation in the face of injustice. Uh, uh, uh, and then the other would be, um, the go go for broke, which is Hawaiian pigeon for, um, go all out, give 110%, um, p patriotic self-sacrifice to prove that you're just as American as everyone else. Mm-hmm. And, and now these are the two, you know, uh, common, um, ideas of, of Japanese Americans in World War ii. And none of that rang true for me because, uh, uh, when I was growing up in the, in the sixties, or, you know, we, we would ask our parents, you know, mom, dad, why didn't you resist the, you know, these camps? And they would pat us on the head and say, well, you're too young. You know, times are different then. Um, and, uh, you, you, you can't go apply in your Berkeley civil rights activism in the sixties to the 1940s.
Speaker 7 00:19:23 Uh, you, you weren't born yet, so don't judge. You can't judge us. You know. Uh, but when I discovered that there were actually, uh, men, young men, like 18, 20, 20 year olds who resisted, uh, uh, the draft, the incarceration, um, not by throwing stones and, and, and, and, and fighting the bayonets of the soldiers who took them from their homes in 1942, they, they, they chose to, uh, resist the draft. They, they refused to be drafted by the government from inside an American concentration camp two years later into their incarceration. And that was their, their last stand of being, uh, to try to bring a case into a test case, into court, to, um, to, uh, protest the, um, the, the incarceration itself. So, um, when I, when I discovered these guys, uh, through the help of some other, uh, fellow writers named a guy named Frank Chin, um, um, that made sense then, then all made sense to me that that became my, my, my framework for understanding this, um, uh, event, uh, historical event.
Speaker 7 00:20:29 Uh, which, which, which itself is not taught in schools, uh, a lot either. So, no, there, there, there, there's kind of these, these deeper layers to an event that's already mis that's already not well known. Um, so I, I, I made a feel about it in, in, in 2000, uh, for PBS called Consciousness Constitution. Um, and the, the book that I'm very fascinated by is a novel called John, uh, Nono Boy by John Ocaa, which is about a draft, one of these draft resistors, uh, from the minicamp of Mendo Idaho. And, um, I wrote a biography, um, of John Ocaa and, uh, Greg Robinson, Floyd Chung and I collaborated on an anthology, uh, collecting his unpublished work, uh, and unpublished his, his un his rediscovered work. Cause it was published in a, in a, in a community newspaper. Uh, and we published an anthology with my biography and some, some collected un uh, rediscovered works and critical essays.
Speaker 7 00:21:27 Uh, and that was, uh, that was a, I'm glad we did that to, to document that. And then most recently, I, I was, I got a commission to write, uh, the script for a graphic novel, uh, collaborating with, with, uh, another writer, Tom Coney Mo and, and two artists, uh, with the w Luke Museum in Seattle to do a graphic novel about camp Resistance. And, and so they, they got this grant for three graphic novels, uh, Nese soldiers, uh, the popular story of the Gopher Burk, uh, camp Resistance, and, uh, white Allies, those who helped us. Mm-hmm. Uh, church, you know, the American Friends Service Committee and, and, uh, church leaders, Christian Church leaders. Um, and, but the very fact, Ari, that there was a, a slot allotted to camp resistance, uh, and a commission for that really is a result of our work, me and others, 20 years ago, to, to, uh, recover the story of camp resistance, um, uh, and make it a, a story that's had given equal weight to that of the more popular story of the 442nd Regimental Combat team and the military Intelligence Service soldiers, um, who were, who were very brave and, and made, made great sacrifices.
Speaker 7 00:22:44 But that was the dominant narrative in the Japanese American community. Uh, uh, a long, well, we'll go into that <laugh>, um, the dominant narrative in the community, which, which I and others challenged. But, and this is only 20 years ago, you know, it, it's, it took that long for my community to come to grips with the fact that there was dissent in the camps. There was resistance, but this was, this was really silenced, you know, by, uh, our community leaders, uh, uh, and, um, took a lot of, you know, it, it, it was not an easy, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not a very popular guy in, in the Japanese community in some, in some circles of the community for, for, you know, for raising these, uh, issues that weren't talked about in polite society. Um, but, um, you know, fortunately now, after all this time, it, it's become more recognized and legitimized, accepted as, as a legitimate part of our story.
Speaker 7 00:23:46 So the, the, the play I'm working on right now is, is a departure for me, because it's not a documentary film or an academic book mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, or even, or even a graphic novel that's based on real, a non-fiction, you know, not graphic novel based on real care, real history, real people. Um, but it's taking those same themes and, and characters, uh, and, and bringing them into a stage on, onto the stage. I should tell you that this is full circle for me, because I was trained as an actor. I, I got a degree in theater arts at uc, Santa Cruz, and I trained as a professional, a classical Shakespearean actor Oh, wow. At Cze off Shakespeare,
Speaker 6 00:24:30 Frank, you're just incredible. Well,
Speaker 7 00:24:32 It, it's just, it's just time. It's just, I mean, enough time to do all these things, <laugh> and, and, and the luxury, uh, of, you know, to follow, follow my interests. I
Speaker 6 00:24:40 Mean, oh, what a gift that it really is.
Speaker 7 00:24:42 Yeah. I mean, I, I, my parents, you know, fortunately did not, uh, as, as the stereotype is of Asian American parents, you know, pressing their kids to be doctors and lawyers and engineers.
Speaker 6 00:24:53 Um, oh, do I know that all too well, <laugh> Yeah, of course. Same in the Arab Arab community as well. Be a doctor, a pharmacist, a nurse, a lawyer,
Speaker 7 00:25:00 Because that's the way to succeed Yeah. In a, in a, in a country that is a white majority and does not accept, uh, um, people of color. Yeah. So, yeah. Okay. Yeah.
Speaker 6 00:25:11 So Yeah. Yeah. No, it's <laugh> shared. This is a shared experience. Yeah,
Speaker 7 00:25:14 Yeah. Yeah. But, but, so having the luxury to pursue theater, uh, as a, uh, in, uh, in college, um, um, was a, a, a real, a real gift. And, uh, again, full circle. So I, I studied as a classical lecture at the, uh, American Conservatory Theater in San Francisco. So, but then I went off into, because there were no parts for Asian American actors, I mean, for a, for, for a brief moment in time, I, uh, I tried to work in the, you know, TV and film industry. I, I, I got a, a featured role in a, in a TV movie on nbc, farewell and Mansard. It was great. It was a, it was a good experience. Um, and then <laugh>, this, I, I'll tell you the story. I mean, yes, we do. I, I, I, I did get in because I got a role as an incarceration camp leader in Farwell demands and our 1976 TV movie Universal.
Speaker 7 00:26:10 Um, uh, I, I, I actually got an agent in San Francisco, Anne Brener. And I, I got sent out to, uh, do to two, two auditions in, in LA and I had to, you know, fly my pay my own way down. One was for a Japanese fighter pilot in the, uh, universal extravaganza. Midway. Midway was a, a se sense around movie with surround sound effects. And, um, Charlton Heston and whoever else, uh, the Battle of Midway. But they wanted, they wanted a Japanese, uh, fighter pilot, you know, to do like three lines in a plane. And I did it. And, and Jack Smite, the director, said, uh, can you be more mechanical? Be, uh, be more, can you be more robotic? Oh, <laugh>. And, and I, I, I, I couldn't get it. I wasn't, I wasn't trained as a film actor yet, or then, so that I, I didn't know kind of how, how to do different readings on things.
Speaker 7 00:27:01 I didn't get that. Um, but when I went in for the audition, I could, I could feel, I walked past a, a group of extras, you know, uh, Japanese American extras, playing Japanese soldiers, and I could feel the them glaring at me on the sides. Cause I was going in for an audition and they weren't, cuz you know, I was an actor. Oh. But, but just that, that I got that, that, that, that, that fiff of desperation of, of Ja of Asian American actors in the industry. I, that, that's, that told me a lot. The second one, Neil Simon had a, a play called Murder by Death, which was a, uh, uh, parody of all the mystery characters. Aha. Christi Hacu, pero, uh, and then, uh, Charlie Chan and Peter Sells, was playing Charlie Chan. I, I, I wish I'd done it actually now, but, so I, I gave a reading as Charlie Chan's number one son in, in, in the, in this audition.
Speaker 7 00:27:52 And, and I did it. And because we had all our friends in San Francisco in the seventies, we don't all get high and imitate Charlie Chan number one son. And, you know, and, and I, so I did this, I did number one son. Really? What g you know, Gpop <laugh>, you know? Oh, wow. Yeah. It's a really great mystery. Pop, pop gpop. Um, and I did it so well, and, and Jennifer, she goes, yes, you really understand this character really well, don't you, number one son, the stereotype, you know? Uh, and so I, I interview, I, I, uh, I, I, I talked to Frank Chan, the playwright, who wrote a play called Gpop, actually a parody of Charlie Chan on Maui. And, uh, he said, Frank, don't do it. Don't, don't, don't do it. If you do this, you'll be forever, forever stereotyped as a, as a number, number one son, you know, in, in, in, in, in the industry.
Speaker 7 00:28:47 And, and because I had aspirations at the time, I said, oh, yeah, Frankie, you're right. So I, so I went in and I sanitized my performance. Oh my gosh. I gave an angry char. I gave an angry number one son, <laugh>. And, and the director, Robert Moore, returned to er, he goes, well, that was a long flight for nothing, wasn't it? You know? Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. So that was my, my short-lived Hollywood career, the point being that there are no parts for Asian American actors in Hollywood. And I knew that. So I I, I, I didn't pursue acting, uh, because that was not an option in the seventies. And, and, and chose to, turned to writing. Writing instead, writing instead. Yeah. So that, that's, that's the point. That's the point of that story. I got a job in radio news in Seattle because I wanted to learn how to write, and in radio, uh, the, you're dependent on the written word. And so I just wrote, wrote, wrote news, news stories, uh, because in, in like poetry radio news, you're writing for the ear. You're writing for the ear, and you're using, um, your language, uh, within a, a select small vocabulary for news. Uh, but using your language to try and excite the listener to try and reach them. So that was, that was very helpful.
Speaker 6 00:29:54 Yeah. And you only have so much time, so it's gotta be succinct, concise.
Speaker 7 00:29:58 Exactly. 45 seconds for a voicer, and then they cut down to 30 seconds. Oh. So to entire news story in 30, 30 seconds. So, yeah, I, I got real good at that. Uh, you, you learn real fast. So, uh, it, it was, you know, poetry in, in, in that sense,
Speaker 6 00:30:14 <laugh>, it kind of is. Yeah.
Speaker 7 00:30:15 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So that's a, that's a long way around to say that, um, the, the acting turned into writing. And now I'm, I'm glad to be able to finally come back to, you know, using my theater training in, in this, uh, and, and all the work I've done with, you know, Japanese American resistance and, and try and bring that, uh, into a play.
Speaker 6 00:30:36 Yeah. So when we first got here, I ran into in the parking lot, and I was like, oh, hello. Cause I was a little late to join, and I asked you how it was going. And he said, I have all these things up on the wall. I'm kind of curious about that, that process. Does visually seeing like the arc help you do, you have to see for stage direction, who's coming in from where? Cause I know you're still working through the very rough skeleton pieces of this, and I imagine your theater background is probably very, very helpful.
Speaker 7 00:31:09 Yes. Yeah. And, and, and, and, and the, the posted notes on the wall is a classic screenwriters or, uh, technique to try and, you know, a mappings out. And, and, and Michelle, I, we appreciate this. I do have a copy of, of Brett Snyder's Skin, the Cat, which is a, one of the screenwriting screenwriters, uh, you know, um, textbooks, uh, uh, in my room. But, you know, the funny thing is, I, I spent the first two days doing that, uh, uh, uh, writing Post-it notes, you know, each, uh, comes home from prison. He, uh, meets his mother, uh, blah, you know, uh, he meets his friend Kenzie. And, um, I, I put it in the wall and it helped me for a couple days. And I haven't gone back to it since, huh. Because I went to this, I went under this other, uh, thing of, of trying to, to actually, um, retype the scenes.
Speaker 7 00:32:04 Mm. Okay. And that's been more productive for me. And I realized, you know, I, I, it's not my job to try. And the, the Post-It notes is for, um, when you have an original screenplay and you're trying to f figure out the story and when things happen and what one, how one thing leads to another mm-hmm. <affirmative> in, in this case, I, I realized in the first week, you know, the story's already there. Oh, I see. I, I don't need to screw around with it. Uh, and so, uh, it's my job to really, um, embody, embrace the, understand the story mm-hmm. <affirmative>, what makes it tick, uh, and then, you know, uh, adjust from there. So now, so I'm, now I'm right in the middle of trying to, you know, get the, the, the novel inside myself. Hmm. Uh, and, and back on the page before I try and, you know, screw around with it. <laugh>
Speaker 6 00:32:56 <laugh>. Sounds like you might need to roll around on the floor then, too. <laugh>
Speaker 7 00:32:59 Maybe. So, yeah. Yeah. Pretty soon you, you'll hear me doing the thing of reading the parts out loud. Yeah.
Speaker 6 00:33:05 Oh, good. Yeah. Yeah. I'm excited for that. Yeah. Cause
Speaker 7 00:33:08 Shout
Speaker 6 00:33:09 The shared the shared wall. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 7 00:33:11 Uhhuh <laugh>.
Speaker 6 00:33:12 So that's interesting. You, you started with one process, you abandoned it Yeah. To move into a different process. And now you feel like it's getting more into the body. Does that make you want to, to take more breaks and walk around on the grounds more, or you to like kind of, uh, mull it through, let the body process? Or how are you feeling about that?
Speaker 7 00:33:31 Well, I mean, procrastination, <laugh> through walks, uh, is always is it though, from the very start, that was always the, the go-to.
Speaker 6 00:33:40 How can you, when there's the ocean right here and the lighthouse and all these trails, were so lucky.
Speaker 7 00:33:44 Yeah. No, it, it, it's incredible. Uh, yeah. And, and the deer.
Speaker 6 00:33:48 And the deer. Did you see the buck?
Speaker 7 00:33:51 The buck came yesterday, the giant buck this yesterday. I saw him for the first time. Oh,
Speaker 6 00:33:54 You saw him for the first time yesterday? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. He's been here for a few days. Oh,
Speaker 7 00:33:58 Yeah.
Speaker 6 00:33:58 Scared the light out of me. Yeah. <laugh> in the parking lot at night, making the sound. And I was like, oh, I better back up slowly. Yeah. <laugh> <laugh>. So you realize how much we are really in nature here, which is a such a treat. So, yeah, I'm just going for walks. I guess you call it procrastination, I call it part of the process.
Speaker 7 00:34:18 Yeah.
Speaker 6 00:34:19 A little different lens. I guess.
Speaker 7 00:34:21 It helps, uh, I mean, I, the, the, a advantage of the residency I'm finding is, you know, as, as at home too, that the best, the ideas come to you a after a, after you sleep on it. Yeah. In the morning. Yeah. And, and even going for a walk, um, something will, will drop into place. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I go, oh, I gotta, I gotta work on that. And I go back, I'll, I'll cut my walk short and go back to the room and get back to the idea.
Speaker 6 00:34:49 Do you, uh, bring a notebook with you when you go for hikes or
Speaker 7 00:34:53 Walks? You know, I should, uh, I should be like Jack Carro. I can carry one in my back pocket, but I, I, I have my iPhone.
Speaker 6 00:35:00 Oh,
Speaker 7 00:35:01 Okay. I'll just take a note in, in, in the notes.
Speaker 6 00:35:04 I must be a really bad millennial then, cuz I still bring my, my notebook and a pencil <laugh>.
Speaker 7 00:35:08 Yeah. That's, that's the way to do it. Alright. That, that, absolutely.
Speaker 6 00:35:11 I'm, I am, I am a Jack Kerouac after all, I guess carrying my notebook around and yeah. My back pocket. And I'll take a moment to, to sit and just write and listen to the birds.
Speaker 7 00:35:21 Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 6 00:35:23 Different process altogether though, cuz uh, it sounds though, as you get more involved into the script, you're gonna have to write the movement, like where actors are on stage, stage directions, considering lighting all of this Yeah. Comes into it. But you're gonna bring that in, I'm guessing probably further down the line here as you get more of a skeleton draft into a more full draft.
Speaker 7 00:35:49 Um, the one thing I've, I've learned, uh, in, uh, talking to some of the directors recently was, uh, don't worry about the lighting and the movements. I, I was, I was getting too hung up in set design and how to, how to get people in and out. And then after studying some of the scripts, I realized just write the, write the dialogue. And, and, and there's, there's a, there's a complicated scene in this, in this book where, um, old woman drowns herself in a bathtub. Oh. And, and I was discussing with the director how, how do we stage that, you know, and, and, and how do we, how do I write for that? And, and I don't want the actors getting cold in the water, you know, real water
Speaker 6 00:36:28 On
Speaker 7 00:36:28 Stage. Yeah. Wow. And he says, he said, you know, Frank, don't worry about that. Let let the director figure that out, <laugh>, that's their job. That's their job shop designer. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I I really am more of an adherent of Peter Brooks, uh, the empty state, empty space. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> the empty space, which is, and, and, and dances like this too, I'm sure, where you have just a space and the actor and hers characters inhabit that space. Whether it's, it's, it was a actor in a, in a spotlight, in a monologue or a dialogue scene. I'm, I'm truly trying to envision it just as, you know, just a bear space and people in that space, um, uh, having their, not just conversation, but intention and obstacle, intention and obstacle. What, what is, what's happening there between these people? Um, and, and let, let the, the set designer figure it out. Just, just write. And I saw, I saw another script where it just says he enters, he ex enters exit. Just, and that's all, that's
Speaker 6 00:37:23 All you do. That's all you really
Speaker 7 00:37:24 Need. Yeah. Yeah. Enter an exit.
Speaker 6 00:37:25 And I guess I, it probably does depend too, on the stage where, wherever this is gonna be, because you don't know how big the wing is gonna be, how much of a run back through you have. Oh, yeah. All, all of that. Yeah. So, I guess, you know, you can do your best efforts, but you won't really know until you get there.
Speaker 7 00:37:39 Yeah. I, I I love Black Box theater.
Speaker 6 00:37:42 It's just, oh, was my next question. Oh. What, what was I wanted to ask you, what's your ideal space to present? This was a black box, you imagine?
Speaker 7 00:37:49 Well, I, I love, I love black box theaters, but I, I imagine that a play like this would work better on a proscenium stage. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, I, you know, I, I just to help my process, I intentionally booked a, a trip back to Seattle this weekend just to see, um, Aaron Sorkin's to Kill a Mockingbird at the Paramount Theater, the tutoring company. And I'd seen it twice already in, in, in New York City. Uh,
Speaker 6 00:38:16 I wish I would've known, I would've loved to see this. Oh,
Speaker 7 00:38:18 I saw, okay. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 6 00:38:19 That's amazing.
Speaker 7 00:38:20 Yeah. And, and this time, I, I sat in the second balcony, uh, because I'm cheap, but also, but <laugh>, uh, but because I'd seen it close up in, uh, in Broadway before, um, and, and just watching the audience, how, how the audience reacted to the dialogue in and in, in the broadest sense. I mean, they were reacting to very broad things and not well, and, and the very subtle things they could also pick up on. But it was the broad movements and the broad gestures in the dialogue that they most responded to. And that it was a very helpful lesson for me that I'm, I can really apply right now in, in what I'm doing.
Speaker 6 00:38:56 Yeah. Wow. Do you, um, does it feel, I guess this is something since both of our work kind of involves social justice. Yeah, I know. I always feel like regardless of what happens to my work, it's still important work to be done. I don't really set out with the goal of like, this should be published, or this has to be read. None of that really feels as important, even as like a performance artist to me. But now for the work that you're doing, it, it's intended for the stage. So, and it will likely resonate with so many people. Um, because I did not know about some of the things that you are talking about until you've educated me. I don't think you're right in many ways that we don't learn these histories in school. It's not part of the narrative. Um, so I mean, how, how do you approach that? Do you feel like no matter what happens, this is a good process of uncovering? Do you, I mean, what kind of stake do you give yourself when you go about creating this work?
Speaker 7 00:39:55 That's interesting. You, you bring that up because it's a struggle for me. I, I, I, I, I, I'm not proud of this, but I, I get kind of annoyed when people say, come up to me afterwards, and they go, oh, I learned so much, or I didn't, I didn't know, I didn't know about this happening in America. How terrible. And I go, well, a I don't expect you to know it, because, you know, it's, it's
Speaker 6 00:40:15 Not
Speaker 7 00:40:15 Taught, it's not taught. I, I, I, I get
Speaker 6 00:40:17 That. And you have to really dig in to kind of learn some of these
Speaker 7 00:40:20 Stories. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I, I don't expect people to know this history. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I, I don't get, I don't get mad when they don't, I assume they don't, you know mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but this something about them. And I learned so much. And I go, well, well, of course you did. You know? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so I mean, I struggle with it in the sense that, that I'm, I'm, I'm more for, I'm more, right now, I'm focused on the characters and, and the, and the, um, emotion. Um, and, and I, I'm, I'm glad that I, I have a safety net in a way that there, that can always fall back on the fact that this novel has a great story mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and that no matter how badly I messed this up, um, people will still get a sense of a history.
Speaker 7 00:41:04 Yeah. They will quote, unquote, learn something <laugh>, you know? Yeah. Uh, and, and so, uh, at the very minimum, I, uh, I of accomplished those two goals, you know, and, and if I don't get to the third level of really making it, making it sing and making it really original mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, and, and, um, devastating. Yeah. It's a tragedy. The, the story's a tragedy. And I, I really wanna, I really wanna find a way to, to land it so that people are just devastated at the end. <laugh> Yes. They're broken up. And so not, not just, oh, I learned something, but, you know, oh, I was really moved mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, I was destroyed. I was destroyed watching this. Yeah. Yeah. I have that weight. Um, when, when you're, when you're reading with a, uh, to an audience, I mean, w how, how do you want to your problems to land? Whether it's the nature ones or the, um, the, the political ones?
Speaker 6 00:42:00 Yeah. I mean, I think poetry, like stories is an opportunity to put yourself in someone else's shoes. So, if anything, I just hope it resonates either on an emotional level and an intellectual level, or even just that something sits on your mind for a moment, um, that you have to consider at a deeper level. Or maybe it, it reveals something about yourself and how you're thinking about an image or a metaphor or a color. So much of, um, words, I think are embedded and embodied in, in us, and each of us comes to each of these words with an inherent memory or a sense of taste or smell or place or emotion behind it. And so no matter what, it's gonna resonate different to each audience member. So I don't necessarily start out with my poems thinking like, oh, this has to be, I want everyone to cry in the audience.
Speaker 6 00:42:52 Like, I don't go there. But I do hope that it offers an opportunity to re, to reflect, um, that introspection a little bit on oneself. And then also there is the social justice side. So, you know, when these poems go out into the world, I hope that they're connected to a social justice. Cause, you know, I hope that they help to raise awareness that I can help build momentum behind support for people that need it, like refugees that are coming to the United States. So, I mean, that's one of the things that I, I think I'm, I'm most concerned with is, is being able to support them. And so, using whatever my work is as a catalyst to support, for example, literacy in refugee situations, which is one of the things I do when I'm, when I'm teaching, um, if you think about a refugee's journey, oftentimes they start in one country with some schooling in literacy in one language.
Speaker 6 00:43:44 But because of so much that's going on in conflict, they move to another area. And now it's a new language. Let's just say they move to France. And so now their literacy skills start all over. Um, and they only have so much of the L one, and now you have another language. And so how do we help those people coming to America with limited resources, with maybe the only things that they got on their back that came through so much. So I hope that my poems are, are in a way, a catalyst in, in a support, or even just a way for, um, people to see a piece of themselves in that.
Speaker 7 00:44:17 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we, we, you know,
Speaker 6 00:44:19 That's the big grandiose, you know, goal. But these are lofty goals. And I'm not saying that any of 'em are, you know, always accomplished or perfect. There's lots of room for growth.
Speaker 7 00:44:29 <laugh>, it is not poetry for poetry's sake.
Speaker 6 00:44:32 No. Gosh, I don't think so. There's some that feel like that, that feel like candy <laugh>, they feel like I'm eating a big bar of chocolate, for sure. And those ones you have to write, you have to write those ones with the ones that are heavy and difficult. Um, you, you have to take the good with the bad. I think you might get down into the spiral of, oh, the, you know, Plato's cave, God forbid, you know, <laugh>. Yeah. What about for you? Do you ever write for the sheer joy of writing or for the sake of the candy of it all to write?
Speaker 7 00:45:05 Um, not for the candy so much, but just, I mean, I, I try and write every day. Yeah. Uh, um, um, it starts with a, a journal, but then it kind of just goes off into, um, light bulbs flashing on different ideas and, and con making connections. A lot of connections. Yeah. Uh, uh, especially in the morning. So, um,
Speaker 6 00:45:26 So you're more of a morning person Yeah. For
Speaker 7 00:45:29 Writing. Yeah. That's why I wanted to have to do this in the afternoon, not the morning.
Speaker 6 00:45:32 Ah, I see.
Speaker 7 00:45:32 Yeah. I don't wanna lose another morning to
Speaker 6 00:45:34 See. I'm a night owl. Oh, I inside. So this worked out well, anyways. Both. Yeah. Yeah. I typically work in, like, last night I was working till three 30 in the morning.
Speaker 7 00:45:43 Well, that's why you were up at, at, at 12 4, 12 15. I, I, you going to at 12, you were still up.
Speaker 6 00:45:48 I was still up, yeah. Oh my God. I was still working three. Yeah. I was just needing to get work done. You know how that goes. You just get into the zone and you're like, gotta get this done. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that happens. I was like, all right, well, here we are.
Speaker 7 00:46:00 Yeah. But I, I think now I've, I've over time learned to just shut it down at by, by 2:00 AM and just say that's enough. That's enough. I, I, I'll, I'll, I'll hit it. Hit it in the morning. It'll be there. It'll
Speaker 6 00:46:09 Be, yeah. But I wanted to make sure I left myself some breadcrumbs, you know? Oh, yeah. So I can get back
Speaker 7 00:46:13 There. You have to do that. Yeah. You have to like, yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 6 00:46:15 And I wasn't done, I wasn't completed with a thought yet, <laugh>, so I was like, I gotta get the breadcrumbs laid down so I can follow the trail later, <laugh>. Yeah.
Speaker 7 00:46:24 Well, um, we have to do a showcase later on. We don't have to, but we ordered a showcase. So, um, do, are you looking forward to that?
Speaker 6 00:46:32 I am. I, I'm sad. I'll, I'll miss part of it, uh, because I actually have to fly. I have to fly out because I am so grateful for so many wonderful opportunities in the dance world that I'm actually working on, um, Arabian, uh, in the Nutcracker. And so, uh, it's, as you know, it is Nutcracker season. I don't know if you knew this, but it starts in August, uh, in preparation for the December shows. And I am so grateful to be working with, um, many students, but I'm setting Arabian this year, which is my favorite part of the Nutcracker. I'm not biased, of course, <laugh>. Um, so I have to get back a little early. Um, but I will be, um, doing open studio time, and I've actually had a few friends co from our cohort just say, why don't you come and like, sit in the studio? And so I've been able to impromptu show them some pieces of, of movement, um, for what, what I'm working on.
Speaker 7 00:47:25 Oh. Oh, okay. So are you, are you not gonna be there on the 28th for the showcase?
Speaker 6 00:47:30 No, sadly.
Speaker 7 00:47:31 Oh, no. See, I know, because I was, I was gonna ask you, uh, I, I, I decided that I was gonna do, um, the, the introduction to this play and the first scene. Yeah. And I, instead of my reading it, I wanted to have the writers, uh, cast the writers to read it. Oh. Like a, like a table reading.
Speaker 6 00:47:50 Oh, I would've been happy to do that. I love to read, so,
Speaker 7 00:47:53 Oh, okay. Oh,
Speaker 6 00:47:54 I know. I'm sorry. Oh,
Speaker 7 00:47:56 Sad. I, I had you for specific parts.
Speaker 6 00:47:59 Oh, no. Of the Prota. I'm like, you, I'll record it and you can play it if you want. Yeah,
Speaker 7 00:48:03 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Well, that's good to know. But yeah, so that, that's, I'm gonna try and, and, and, and just have, um, the other people read these, this the script. Yeah. And I wanna sit back and listen to
Speaker 6 00:48:15 It. Oh, isn't that a nice treat to be able to hear it read by others?
Speaker 7 00:48:19 Scary.
Speaker 6 00:48:20 Scary. <laugh>. <laugh>. But it is nice. I enjoy, I mean, I enjoy giving a poem to a, a, a friend and say, Hey, can you read this so I can hear it? Oh. Because it does sound, oh, you know, the way I would say it is gonna be different than someone who's unfamiliar with the work to read it out loud. And oftentimes when I'm working on, uh, visceral poems, I don't always love to hear my voice while I'm dancing. It. It's just, it's a weird mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's weird. It's sometimes it's weird. You're like, I, I'm already dancing. Like, do I also need to hear my voice too? <laugh>. Um, so it's nice though to hear another person's voice and to also invite that energy into the space versus just, it's like all of, all of my, you know, I, I can give them the poem, I wrote it, but then other person's voice, and having them be a part of it is actually a really lovely experience for me. I, I enjoy collaboration and working together on projects. So
Speaker 7 00:49:11 No, um, my, my friend Frank Chin, uh, made reference to an idiot actor, an actor proof script, <laugh>, in other words, uh, uh, is there such thing? Well, there can be, if, if you write it in a way that the actors can't mess it up, they, that the language, the words, the right words are there. Oh, I see. And the ideas are there. And so if they just say the words in that order, <laugh>, it'll, it'll, it'll work No matter, it'll work, won't matter what, no matter how bad they are. Oh gosh. Yeah. An actor proof script. So I wanted to, I wanted, that's why it was scary for me to hear this, you know, read.
Speaker 6 00:49:47 Oh,
Speaker 7 00:49:47 Yeah. Other people. Oh, wow. The first time, yeah.
Speaker 6 00:49:51 I guess I haven't really considered that, but that's a whole nother aspect to writing a script that you have to consider is how are these words going to feel in someone else's mouth when they read them out loud? Oh, yeah. Like, is, is this word, you know, too much here, too many syllables, and do you need another comma or a semicolon? And just how to pace it. I mean, it's similar in poetry too,
Speaker 7 00:50:11 And, and is, you know, even with a bad or a inadequate performance does, does, is, is, is this the way they should be talking? Is this Right? You know, or should, should they, is it too long for, you know, if
Speaker 6 00:50:24 Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 7 00:50:25 So,
Speaker 6 00:50:26 Um, and tone is also important Yeah. In making sure the right tone comes through. Yeah.
Speaker 7 00:50:30 Yeah. The next step for this would be, uh, you know, a table reading with, uh, professional actors, you know, and mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, someone reading the stage directions and then, you know, and turn exit, and then hearing, hearing the words.
Speaker 6 00:50:44 Would you have them read it ahead of time or would they read it blind? Is the purpose of it to have them read it blind,
Speaker 7 00:50:50 Prepare? No, they
Speaker 6 00:50:51 Prepare. Oh, okay. So they get a, they get the script ahead of time before they sit down. Oh, okay. Yeah. Sorry, novice question here. No,
Speaker 7 00:50:58 It's a table reading. Um, uh, TV shows do this, you know, every week, you know, you sit down and read the script. Yeah. Uh, and for them, it's a, it's a cold reading. Yeah.
Speaker 6 00:51:07 Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That has to be, um, pretty nerve-wracking. So does the director sit down during that as well to kind of hear, or is it just for Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And do they give feedback at that time?
Speaker 7 00:51:20 Well, that's a whole, that's a whole purpose of a table reading for a new play as to, uh, understand, you know, how the actors say, I can't say this, or this, this, this really, how, how here's not, you know, offer ideas. Yeah. How to improve it. Um, so,
Speaker 6 00:51:35 Oh, here's a, here's a question. Yeah. For you, how, um, how do you handle feedback? How do you, do you have a hard time with feedback? Do you enjoy feedback? I mean, how, what is your sense of that?
Speaker 7 00:51:46 Oh, I mean, of course it's valuable and of course, yes. Oh yeah. And of course, if it's, if it's, uh, good feedback, I'm, I'm all at ears and busy taking notes mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and if it's something silly, it's hard to keep a straight face
Speaker 6 00:51:59 <laugh>.
Speaker 7 00:52:00 Uh, um, but, but it's, you, you, you want to get that, you know, good, the good end is silly. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, because, you know, if, if it's, if it's a silly feedback, maybe there's still, you know, what's under, under what's underneath their Mm. Their concern, you know, there's always something underneath it. So it's, um, I, I, yeah. Feedback's
Speaker 6 00:52:19 Great. Yeah. Feedback is a gift.
Speaker 7 00:52:21 Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I have a, another book I'm just completing, it's an anthology of the literature of Japanese American incarceration.
Speaker 6 00:52:30 And was that with Penguin Press,
Speaker 7 00:52:32 I believe? Yeah. With Penguin classes. Incredible.
Speaker 6 00:52:33 Well,
Speaker 7 00:52:34 It's crazy. I fell into this, you know, gig through my friend, you know, through Floyd Chung, who collaborated on with me on the John ota, uh, anthology. Uh, he invited me to, to help him out with this. And, and now, you know, we're,
Speaker 6 00:52:45 And here you are,
Speaker 7 00:52:46 Spent six years on it, you
Speaker 6 00:52:47 Know? Oh my gosh.
Speaker 7 00:52:48 Yeah. Oh, yeah. Six years. Uh, and, um,
Speaker 6 00:52:53 And it, when is this due out? Oh, <laugh>. Oh, no, <laugh>.
Speaker 7 00:52:57 A year after the editor accepts it. Yeah.
Speaker 6 00:52:59 Okay. All
Speaker 7 00:53:00 Right. But the, the point I'm trying to make is that, uh, the, I just sent it out to, uh, friends for some what ac what academics call peer review. Yes. <laugh>. Uh, which is glorified feedback, you know, and I'm trying to figure out what, what are we missing? Yep. You know, uh, what is, yeah, what, what, what are we missing here? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. And, and if, if you were reviewing this book, what would you say was the terrible errors that the, the an omissions, the all editors made <laugh> be and be brutal. You know? So I'm getting feedback now on that. Yeah, that's, and that's, it's very helpful of course. And, and, and some of the feedback is you should include this. And I go, I'm not gonna
Speaker 6 00:53:41 Include that. Yes. And see, that's where I was curious. So how do you manage when you deal with, uh, those points of contention and feedback? Because you're right, not all feedback is useful, and sometimes it is truly silly, but, um, sometimes it's a lack of awareness or a lack of education or a lack of perspective that ends up making the author having to explain a lot and teach a lot for everyone to kind of understand why certain things are in or not in included.
Speaker 7 00:54:10 My, my, my, my job there is to explain the guiding principle of our, of this anthology and why a selection about skateboarders is at the ruins of the camp at Manzanar is not the idea we're going for mm-hmm. <affirmative> in this section, I'm looking for voices that are pushing back against the government, uh, and pushing back against, uh, the re repetition of the history in, in, in that particular section, repetition of history by the, the last administration, uh, in repeating the, the, um, the, uh, the demonization of mm-hmm. <affirmative> of people of color and immigrants and, um, yeah. And, and, and asylum seekers. And so that's why this, you know, tell my friend this is why this this great suggest. It's a good suggestion, but I'm, I'm not gonna to go that direction. And, but here's the reason why. Yes. Here's a tangible reason why. And it's, it's very, you know, with an anthology like that, there are, there were 120,000 people incarcerated and there are 120,000 ways to slice an anthology of, of, of the literature incarceration. Wow. Uh, um, and so this is, this is our, our editing of, of the, the, the body of work. And someone will also do it differently, you know, uh, but this is just ours and, and we got the contracts, so we're
Speaker 6 00:55:33 Doing it <laugh>. Yeah. I mean, how do you sustain all, so you do so much and you've done so much and you've accomplished so much, and it's incredible to see the body of work. How have you sustained that level of, of work? I mean, cuz it is a constant, obviously we're always dealing with the productivity in America constant more and more and more do more achievement.
Speaker 7 00:55:53 That's an interesting question. I, um,
Speaker 6 00:55:55 Like how do you check in with yourself to keep it sustainable?
Speaker 7 00:55:59 Um, my wife will tell you that I don't clean the house. <laugh>, I mean my, you know, the, the, the place looks like a hoarder. Uh, she called me a hoarder, which is unfair. Uh
Speaker 6 00:56:09 Oh no. A books, of course.
Speaker 7 00:56:11 I simply, I simply need more space, that's all. Um, but, uh, hold, sustain, I mean, I can't, I just can't help it, Ari. I, I can't help it. And, uh, I I I, I've been a Dante in, in skipping from genre to genre, documentary, film, academic. Sure. And so, so I, I've been telling the same basic, honing the, the, the, and developing the same basic story over different genres. So eventually I'll, eventually I'll run outta genres and I'll, I'll be done.
Speaker 6 00:56:40 You have to try dance next. Yeah.
Speaker 7 00:56:42 <laugh> <laugh>. And, um, uh, but, but I also have a sense of urgency. I mean, I, I, you know, uh, I I feel like I have, you know, 10, 20 good years left to, to, to, and, and a lot still a lot to get done. You know, there's, there's a memoir I want to do, for example.
Speaker 6 00:56:59 Oh, so you, you have more work that needs to be done.
Speaker 7 00:57:01 Sure. Needs to be done. And so, yeah, there's a bit of a race against time too. So, uh, yeah. It's, but so as long as I can sustain the, sustain the energy to do it, I'll, I can't help it. And that's why this residency is so great here at Central. Yes,
Speaker 6 00:57:17 It is. Yes
Speaker 7 00:57:19 It is. Yeah.
Speaker 6 00:57:19 Isn't it? It really is. I mean, it, it's, uh, for me, I've been, go, go, go constantly similar in a very similar way. And traveling, traveling, travel over Michigan, driving all over Michigan, which I love the state. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> of course, except when it's snowing sideways and four feet of snow, I'm okay without that. But, um, you, it is, it's a lot, it's a lot of work. You're constantly creating. You're constantly have a need to, to create, to do more. Um, and maybe this is being a daughter of immigrants, the hard work is ingrained. There is no sitting around, there is no sleeping in there, is there is get your work done. Um mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so then this residency, I approached it a little different. Like, yes, I'm still getting my work done. There's still tons of deadlines. I'm still having to do all of that stuff, but I am trying to make an adamant choice of going for the walk, bringing the notebook with me, going to the studio, being okay with maybe, I don't come up with a phrase that I really love today, but it was the process of, of creating for, for the sake of trying to get something and just being okay with the process of uncertainty.
Speaker 6 00:58:27 Um, and digging into that, that this residency has been really illuminating for me. Um, cuz I'm so used to produce more, create more all of this stuff. So when you finally slow down and you finally hear your thoughts and you go for the walk and you see the big buck outside, um, you appreciate the hummingbird and the change of the season and all of this, the Mada tree, which I've never seen before, we're so lucky. It's right here. It's huge and it's gorgeous. Um, it gives you a sense of appreciation. And I think one of the most important things for me, and I, I know we, we do this in yoga, we go to savasana corpse pose, and you feel like the little tingliness at the end of your fingertips and your toes and you realize all that work has finally settled in the body, or you feel it starting to settle in the body mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
Speaker 6 00:59:12 Um, and so this residency is kind of teaching me that I might need to slow down at times and appreciate smelling the roses and appreciate the good work that's being done. Because it's not, you can't keep going and it can't be sustainable, at least for me. Um, cuz you know, the body is, is what it is. It's, it, it ages. And as a dancer, you only have so many good years <laugh>. So there are, there are that, there is that impending ness too of like, oh, you don't have that many more years and I hope I can be Martha Graham and dance until, you know, forever.
Speaker 7 00:59:41 I would say
Speaker 6 00:59:42 If I could be so lucky. Yeah. I was thinking the same thing. Yeah. I mean, and so there there is that real sense of I need to get this work done because the clock mm-hmm. <affirmative> is ticking. Yeah. Um, but then I also wanna be present. And I think that's something that when you're so busy, you're always head in the future, barely looking back at the past, having to look at the present in the rear view mirror quickly. Um, and so being present is a gift of course, of this residency, but it's, uh, been a good learning process for me to realize like, you know, maybe that is something I should dig into a little bit more.
Speaker 7 01:00:15 Yeah. Well, I mean, I, I wanna, I think we should close by giving, uh, more thanks to, you know, the, the volunteers and the board of directors Oh. For who support this,
Speaker 6 01:00:26 This, this incredible opportunity to be here for a month. Yeah. When do we ever get a chance to like dedicate in a space, in a time with support and love of all the people here and the community to just do the art?
Speaker 7 01:00:39 Yeah. I, I had experience in 1986, I was here for two weeks Oh, pond. Oh. The, for the Port Townsend Writers Conference. So this is a bit of a, a homecoming for me. Oh,
Speaker 6 01:00:48 That's amazing.
Speaker 7 01:00:48 It is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I had a, over that building over there, I had a little, little room there. Um, and that wonderful poets and writers, uh, at the time. Uh, but in the, in, in your room is there, is there a thing in the, uh, a plaque that says, oh, naming all the volunteers who, who, um, have furnished our
Speaker 6 01:01:07 Rooms? No, I actually don't have that in mind.
Speaker 7 01:01:09 Doesn't the thing that says, you know, he,
Speaker 6 01:01:12 Uh, I have the thermostat, so I control all the heat. <laugh>,
Speaker 7 01:01:15 You're
Speaker 6 01:01:16 The one I have turned it all off.
Speaker 7 01:01:17 No, no. But I was wondering if the, if the hvac, if there's, I says, I see, uh, uh, uh, air vents heating vent Yep. In, in the scene land. I thought Yep. Well, where's the,
Speaker 6 01:01:26 There was a thermostat. It is in, I have it. Okay.
Speaker 7 01:01:28 <laugh>.
Speaker 6 01:01:29 I have it.
Speaker 7 01:01:30 <laugh>. Yeah. Okay. Let's get case if it gets cold, it's gonna get cold next week.
Speaker 6 01:01:34 Yeah. Everyone can just knock on my door if you need it turned off. Thank you.
Speaker 7 01:01:38 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 6 01:01:38 Keeping it off.
Speaker 7 01:01:39 So there's a, there's a, a wall hanging that says, uh, here the all volunteers who help, you know, furnish the rooms. And I look around, I see the carpets on the floor and you know mm-hmm. <affirmative> the lamps and stuff. So yeah, there are a lot of volunteers who helped, I think, you know, make furnish our, our apartments. Yeah. So I all, we we're very grateful for that
Speaker 6 01:01:56 Too. I mean, it says something about Port Townsend. Yeah. The, the com the community here is just, um, it's a very art community based town. It's on the water. And one thing I can say, living in the Great Lakes and on the water, you know, it, it changes immediately the weather shifts and all of a sudden it's all hands on deck. And that kind of mentality is, is probably ingrained here because it's such a port town. Um, and so it makes you appreciate just all of the loving hands from the volunteers to the drivers, to the board, to the, the money that has supported this whole organization and the fort and the upkeep of the buildings. I mean, the last night we had a fire alarm going off and someone came and helped us with it. I mean, just every single person, um, it takes a village. Yeah. Right. Yeah.
Speaker 7 01:02:45 Well, good. A, um, it's fun talking to you and, uh, thanks, thanks for asking me to, to partner with you on this, this,
Speaker 6 01:02:51 This is fun. Yeah. Thanks for being open to it. And thanks for, uh, you know, yeah. Tolerating all my talking back and forth.
Speaker 8 01:02:58 Thank you for joining us today. This podcast was recorded and edited by staff at Centrum. Music is by Tabor Dark and Cover Art is by Leon Finley, both alums of centrums Residency program. If you've enjoyed this series, please check out our archive of Artist Conversations and other podcasts available wherever you listen. Leave us a review and share with a friend that helps support and head over to centrum.org to learn about our programs, become a participant, or donate. We are grateful to have you in our creative community and look forward to bringing you more conversations from artists and creatives.
